Justify

User avatar
Retrospectiv
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:49 pm

Ha, well, in the span of that few weeks we went from 'what if he's done racing?' to he's DONE racing.

No shock or surprise, though for me a real disappointment. I guess for once, we can thank the Zayat's for having a majority interest in a horse, and the desire to finish out that one's season......

I imagine most of this discussion has lost it's steam seeing as we're well past the announcement now.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway', but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies."
BaroqueAgain1
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:21 pm

IMHO, Justify is going to present a problem (hopefully one that doesn't repeat) for racing historians. How do you judge a horse whose career spanned only a few months and merely six races...but he managed to win the Triple Crown?
He never raced at two and will never face older horses. He was impressive in those six races, but I feel like I never got to see enough of him to get a handle on his ability.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3055
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:34 pm

I never thought I would say this, but I am filled to my craw with talk about Justify. He's an enigma - always was and always will be. I hope he does well as a stallion. Maybe then people will take him seriously.
Tessablue
Posts: 3582
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:14 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:21 pm
IMHO, Justify is going to present a problem (hopefully one that doesn't repeat) for racing historians. How do you judge a horse whose career spanned only a few months and merely six races...but he managed to win the Triple Crown?
He never raced at two and will never face older horses. He was impressive in those six races, but I feel like I never got to see enough of him to get a handle on his ability.
Short of Good Magic going on a tear for the rest of the year, which isn't terribly likely, he'll rest comfortably with Omaha at the bottom of the list and will likely be relatively forgotten. Without fast times or wide margins, all that stands out about him is the fact that his racing career ascended so rapidly, which is a bit of a double-edged sword in this case.

A shame for a nice horse, but the connections brought it on themselves and are probably too busy counting their money to care.
User avatar
Northport
Posts: 2167
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:13 pm
Location: probably near the food

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:21 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:14 pm
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:21 pm
IMHO, Justify is going to present a problem (hopefully one that doesn't repeat) for racing historians. How do you judge a horse whose career spanned only a few months and merely six races...but he managed to win the Triple Crown?
He never raced at two and will never face older horses. He was impressive in those six races, but I feel like I never got to see enough of him to get a handle on his ability.
Short of Good Magic going on a tear for the rest of the year, which isn't terribly likely, he'll rest comfortably with Omaha at the bottom of the list and will likely be relatively forgotten. Without fast times or wide margins, all that stands out about him is the fact that his racing career ascended so rapidly, which is a bit of a double-edged sword in this case.

A shame for a nice horse, but the connections brought it on themselves and are probably too busy counting their money to care.
Pretty much all of this.
weeeeeeeee
BaroqueAgain1
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:38 am

He could have been an excellent four-year-old but, once the connections decided that he wouldn't make the BC Classic 100% ready, I knew that was it for his racing career.
Scat Daddy turned out to be an exceptional stallion. His untimely death made his top colts almost too valuable to keep racing as older horses, especially one who became such a star on DIRT. And a Triple Crown winner.
Last edited by BaroqueAgain1 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tessablue
Posts: 3582
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:11 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:38 am
He could have been an excellent four-year-old but, once the connections decided that he wouldn't make the BC Classic 100% ready, I knew that was it for his racing career.
Scat Daddy turned out to be an exceptional stallion. His untimely death made his top colts almost too valuable to keep racing as older horses, especially one who became such a star of DIRT. And a Triple Crown winner.
I think that was decided the moment he crossed the wire at Belmont, unfortunately.

Anyways I don't want to belabor the point too much but can I just point out how incredibly insulting it is that Winstar's deeply disingenuous retirement statement talks about charging people to see him?
BaroqueAgain1
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 am

Ohhh...I had not read that.
Oh my. :oops:
User avatar
Personal Ensign
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:49 pm
Location: Fairbanks Alaska

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:05 pm

Tessa,
Will he stand at Winstar? I thought he was going to Coolmore.... I wish they would just make up their damn minds and announce where he will stand.




Tessablue wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:11 am
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:38 am
He could have been an excellent four-year-old but, once the connections decided that he wouldn't make the BC Classic 100% ready, I knew that was it for his racing career.
Scat Daddy turned out to be an exceptional stallion. His untimely death made his top colts almost too valuable to keep racing as older horses, especially one who became such a star of DIRT. And a Triple Crown winner.
I think that was decided the moment he crossed the wire at Belmont, unfortunately.

Anyways I don't want to belabor the point too much but can I just point out how incredibly insulting it is that Winstar's deeply disingenuous retirement statement talks about charging people to see him?
Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people.
W. C. Fields



-Formerly LadyWeaver-
User avatar
Miss Woodford
Posts: 1051
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:14 pm
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:21 pm
IMHO, Justify is going to present a problem (hopefully one that doesn't repeat) for racing historians. How do you judge a horse whose career spanned only a few months and merely six races...but he managed to win the Triple Crown?
He never raced at two and will never face older horses. He was impressive in those six races, but I feel like I never got to see enough of him to get a handle on his ability.
Short of Good Magic going on a tear for the rest of the year, which isn't terribly likely, he'll rest comfortably with Omaha at the bottom of the list and will likely be relatively forgotten. Without fast times or wide margins, all that stands out about him is the fact that his racing career ascended so rapidly, which is a bit of a double-edged sword in this case.

A shame for a nice horse, but the connections brought it on themselves and are probably too busy counting their money to care.
Hey now, while Omaha was injured in the summer of his 3yo year his owner actually had some sense of sportsmanship and took him to race in England at 4. There he won two minor stakes, was 2nd by a nose to the great filly Quashed in the Ascot Gold Cup (clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2R0jdPlsw8) and 2nd by a neck in the Princess of Wales as the 134lb highweight. In terms of accomplishments I'd rank him well above Justify.
Tessablue
Posts: 3582
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:54 pm

Oh I love Omaha and think he was a magnificent stayer who is terribly underrated- I just don't think he'll ever get the respect he deserves in the realm of public opinion unless someone takes it upon themselves to get his story out and rehabilitate his reputation. Prior to this year I always personally put Count Fleet at the bottom, but I don't think that's a very popular opinion.

Also, that clip is amazing and I had never seen it. Thanks for posting it!
Personal Ensign wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:05 pm
Tessa,
Will he stand at Winstar? I thought he was going to Coolmore.... I wish they would just make up their damn minds and announce where he will stand.

They are remaining coy about it and claim that nothing is finalized yet (which I guess makes it the worst-kept secret in racing), but the announcement did note that it's no guarantee he'll stay at Winstar for long. I wonder if they thought about adding "act now while supplies last!" to the end of it.
User avatar
Charlie
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:34 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:41 pm

Can’t say I’m surprised. Unfortunate that he wil never get to show everyone what’s he’s made of against older horses.

I wonder if this can be used as a cautionary tale of pushing a young horse with no foundation (and injuring or souring them) or that is unrelated and it’s all about money?
User avatar
Miss Woodford
Posts: 1051
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:58 pm

Charlie wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:41 pm
Can’t say I’m surprised. Unfortunate that he wil never get to show everyone what’s he’s made of against older horses.

I wonder if this can be used as a cautionary tale of pushing a young horse with no foundation (and injuring or souring them) or that is unrelated and it’s all about money?
Consider the Triple Crown winners that got hurt and missed a significant amount of time yet were brought back to the track. Besides the aforementioned Omaha:
-War Admiral injured his hoof during the Belmont and was out until the end of October, winning the Washington Handicap and Pimlico Special prior to his brilliant 4yo season
-Citation developed osselets at the end of his 3yo season and missed his entire 4yo season, racing at age 5 and 6 to reach the $1 million mark
-Seattle Slew was sidelined for the latter part of his 3yo season by his owner's suspension and suffered a collapsed jugular vein followed by a leg injury at 4, but was kept in training for his legendary battles with Affirmed and Exceller
Even Count Fleet, who did not race after his Belmont, was kept in training with hopes of returning and was only retired in July of 1944 after re-injuring himself.

If Justify was racing in a previous era, he'd be brought back. It is all about money now.
User avatar
Treve
Posts: 4424
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 pm

Charlie wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:41 pm
Can’t say I’m surprised. Unfortunate that he wil never get to show everyone what’s he’s made of against older horses.

I wonder if this can be used as a cautionary tale of pushing a young horse with no foundation (and injuring or souring them) or that is unrelated and it’s all about money?
And management. Assuming that the filling in his ankle wasn't bull, I don't understand why they didn't give him a real freshening up at the farm especially after such a gut-wrenching campaign. I know 'Bob doesn't do it like that' but the lot of good that did Arrogate... The most insulting is how he'll have them stabled at the track, locked up in their stall 23.5 hours a day and then say that they have too much energy/are practically knocking down the stall door and put them back in training. I'm not singling him out as I know plenty of other trainers do similarly but when I see those who manage more consistently to keep horses performing at the highest level for more than 1-2 years many of them do have a different approach.

And while Scat Daddy was a spectacular sire, it worries me that out of all his sons at stud he has maybe one that is doing well, and that one stands in Ireland as a turf sire. I'm not convinced it's a home run especially because he hasn't particularly stamped his offspring physically speaking his sons are all over the map so him being a sire of sires is not a done deal. I understand the value because of the potential results and as with many other aspects in racing it's always going to be speculation, but the odds are longer in some cases than in others...

Regardless I do wish him a happy and healthy retirement.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Tessablue
Posts: 3582
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:56 pm

I think if there was an actual injury (not a guarantee) it was quickly seized upon with relief. It's not like an injury before the Preakness stopped them, and compare the way Audible was rushed to a vet with much fanfare for (ostensibly) galloping a little poorly, whereas their Triple Crown winner just sort of... awkwardly paraded around Del Mar until they decided enough time had passed to get away with it, I guess.

It's just all weird. Pretending the Coolmore deal doesn't exist? Weird. Bringing up American Pharoah as some half-hearted attempt at excuse-making in the retirement statement? Kinda sad. Immediately advertising paid tours (which won't last long, but definitely not because they already sold his rights!) on the same day? Ugh. I know they don't technically owe us a thing, but it sure would be nice if it felt like the top competitors in the sport actually respected the fans. Or just refrained from actively insulting them.
User avatar
Treve
Posts: 4424
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:47 am

Win$tar's comparison to American Pharoah in the statement was pretty disingenuous for a number of reasons, that's for sure.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
BaroqueAgain1
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:16 am

Tessablue: ...awkwardly paraded around Del Mar until they decided enough time had passed to get away with it, I guess.

I guess I may be the rare fan who doesn't think there was a conspiracy to get him retired as soon as they could 'get away with it.'
IMHO, both Coolmore (whose opinion probably carried more weight in plans for the horse than Winstar, China Horse Club, etc.) and Baffert are fans of and students of this sport. I believe they really DID want to win the Classic. It would have quelled any questions about whether he's a great horse, and I think stuff like that still matters to the connections who are still horsemen at heart. At least, the ones who aren't accountants at heart. :P
There were good financial reasons for Justify to manage to win a couple more major races. Not for purses (even the millions to be had in the Classic), but to possibly add to his worth as a stallion.
Yes, I know the whole Triple-Crown-winner-and-son-of-Scat-Daddy thing has already made him plenty valuable, but retiring after only six races? That does not add to his value. There could be some breeders out there who view his truncated career with some skepticism, and who might hesitate to spend the big $fee that Coolmore may set for him.
User avatar
Kurenai
Site Admin
Posts: 974
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:01 pm

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:02 am

Treve wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 pm

And management. Assuming that the filling in his ankle wasn't bull, I don't understand why they didn't give him a real freshening up at the farm especially after such a gut-wrenching campaign. I know 'Bob doesn't do it like that' but the lot of good that did Arrogate... The most insulting is how he'll have them stabled at the track, locked up in their stall 23.5 hours a day and then say that they have too much energy/are practically knocking down the stall door and put them back in training. I'm not singling him out as I know plenty of other trainers do similarly but when I see those who manage more consistently to keep horses performing at the highest level for more than 1-2 years many of them do have a different approach.
Thank you, I feel (already wrote about it a while ago) exactly the same way you do.

I wasn't surprised about his retirement, was clear for me that they're letting him down already when they started talking about parading him. I just think the whole thing could have been handled so much better, I'm not a big fan of Winstar, never was (the whole model).

Things like this make me appreciate the fact, that we were able to see Frankel as a 4 yo so much more.
katmandu
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:16 am

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:47 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:16 am
but retiring after only six races? That does not add to his value.
vs. undefeated?
User avatar
Mylute
Posts: 1969
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:20 pm
Location: Alabama

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:26 pm

This is what I will say on this topic because I haven't voiced my opinion on it anywhere before. Sorry if it's long.

I was never a big fan of Justify, because I knew this exact thing would happen. At first I didn't understand why everyone was so quick to crown an allowance horse the next GOAT when horses in the past had done so much more but were disrespected (ex. Nyquist's Derby trail, how everyone seemed to favor Mohaymen despite his resume being significantly weaker). Whenever I see a horse is owned by WinStar, I try to "ignore" them because I know they'll be retired as soon as they get that Gr.I win. I loved Battle of Midway and when I saw that Mr. Porter had to sell him to WinStar I was upset because I knew he'd be retired by the end of the year. Also with Creator (who I know will have a splendid life in Japan but he still could've ran again and probably found success).

And I'm well aware of the business aspect of breeding and racing. I'm not one to cry "greed" every time a farm makes a business decision, because I know farms don't run on love alone and having to sell or retire (ex. Tonalist's connections not having the finances) doesn't always mean it's because they don't care. But WinStar's usual bull really grinds my gears. Let's be honest- even if Justify wasn't injured, he was as good as retired the minute he crossed the wire at Belmont in June. And I do understand the concept of it being risky and insurance and what have you, but it's still disappointing.

We should also be honest with ourselves that we will never see another Triple Crown winner race at four unless they are a gelding or infertile ike Assault because of the above reasons (and can you imagine what a field day the terrorists at PETA and co. would have if a TC broke down?). American Pharoah retiring at three wasn't as much of a disappointment or blow to me because he ran afterwards and faced older males. Same thing with Secretariat; he retired at three but at least he ran against older males and even on turf (people don't like it when you bring up he retired at three but I digress). You can say whatever you want about Mr. Zayat and his family but at least they had the sport to take their horse out for a few more spins. Justify will always be an enigma because you can't gauge him, and that bothers me. He feels unfinished if you will. I don't like comparing horses of different eras anyway because of all the factors, but he is 13th of 13 on the ranking list, IMHO.

WinStar's mess and similar mess is what makes people appreciate California Chrome, Hoppertunity, etc so much. Sorry this was long but I wanted to post it somewhere. I've only been following racing since I was a 5th grade kiddo in 2011 but I've researched and studied and watched religiously since then and this is just how I see it. Cheers.
"You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it."
~ Robin Williams 1951 - 2̶0̶1̶4̶ ∞
Post Reply