Kentucky Derby : Do you agree with the stewards decision?

Kentucky Derby : Do you agree with the stewards decision?

Yes
64
72%
No
25
28%
 
Total votes: 89
stark
Posts: 5430
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Sun May 05, 2019 12:00 pm

Somewhere there are some New Orleans Saints fans laughing out loud or are they crying real tears?
They've sworn off the NFL and are looking for a new weekend hobby to watch.
They tried hockey but have to give that up after cheering for the Las Vegas Golden Knights.
Now they can scratch horse racing off their list too, running out of ideas.

I recommend the golf channel.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
stark
Posts: 5430
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Sun May 05, 2019 2:34 pm

I hope Gary West doesn't wind up sounding like Steve Coburn after Chrome's Belmont.

https://www.drf.com/news/west-contempla ... eral-court
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
PostTimeMike
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Big Easy

Sun May 05, 2019 4:34 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_ychn7ga0

Unfortunate situation. Absolutely correct call!

Context - No money wagered (haven't cashed a ticket since Funny Cide). BIG sentimental interest in War Of Will.

Watched the race at home with no distractions.

Focused intently on WOW. Excellent ride from Tyler G. Beautiful position from the start.

Replay review (see link above): Stop on time indicated.

2:00 Maximum Security (MS) in front. WOW directly behind. Note: Use 1st tire track from fence as reference. Long Range Toddy (LRT) even with WOW and just outside of MS. Bodexpress (BX) outside of LRT and maybe a head behind.

2:03 MS still on lead but has moved inside to halfway between tire track and fence.WOW moving up - but now the lane is open. Stays in lane - note tire track. LRT / BX / and Country House (CH) 1/4 length back and 4 across.

2:06 MS in front. Now 2 lanes outside of tire track. WOW had to check. LRT and BX lose momentum.

Note: To me - this is the point in the race the infraction took place. I haven't read through all the replies (wanted to be unbiased). Had WOW clipped heels and went down - the result would probably been catastrophic!

Given the heightened sense of awareness for thoroughbred safety - the result for the industry would have been devastating!

Observation:

Reviewing the replay - the cause was probably the result of MS drifting towards the fence (2:03) and possibly was startled by crowd noise (most likely) or an overcorrection by the jockey to straighten him out (least likely) and subsequently veering in front of WOW. As the race continues, MS actually veers back to the fence and almost (?) bumps Code of Honor (COH) who shot through the opening.

Conclusion:
* The stewards call was correct. There was an infraction that could have caused a tragic outcome.

* The infraction was not the result of an intentional act.

* The jockeys of all horses involved should be commended for their quick reactions to prevent the worst case scenario.

* Subjective reasoning of who was the best horse / which horses had no chance / jockey or trainer intentions / wagers / etc. should have no bearing on the decision. Stewards cannot refer to the "unwritten rulebook" as a basis for their ruling.

Personal note: As I was watching the race - I noticed something had occurred during that part of the race. As the camera view changed, I thought WOW had got through and was now on the lead. The pink silks of both jockeys looked alike. I was shouting loud enough that the entire neighborhood could hear!! Then my heart sank when I noticed the orange saddle blanket instead of a red one!!!

I am certainly more of a casual fan of the sport than I was years back. But I'm not giving up on it or disposing of my 2007 Derby form or program.

Keep the faith!!! PTM
Apollo
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:05 pm

Sun May 05, 2019 4:54 pm

This sports needs to understand what century we are in. This poll percentage reminds me of the one late last year regarding Horse of the Year. The same old stodgy standards were being applied then, under some misguided belief of necessary correctness.

Meanwhile, the best gauge toward that Horse of the Year decision happened during coverage the past few days on NBC and elsewhere. How many times was Justify's name mentioned? How many times was the other horse's name mentioned?

In this case I'm afraid the fallout from this decision won't be nearly as early or obvious. This specialized and mostly obscure sport needs to be catering to the once-per-year masses, not confusing and alienating them.
User avatar
Dusty
Posts: 633
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:51 pm
Location: Dana Point, Ca
Contact:

Sun May 05, 2019 5:06 pm

PostTimeMike wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:34 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_ychn7ga0

Unfortunate situation. Absolutely correct call!

Context - No money wagered (haven't cashed a ticket since Funny Cide). BIG sentimental interest in War Of Will.

Watched the race at home with no distractions.

Focused intently on WOW. Excellent ride from Tyler G. Beautiful position from the start.

Replay review (see link above): Stop on time indicated.

2:00 Maximum Security (MS) in front. WOW directly behind. Note: Use 1st tire track from fence as reference. Long Range Toddy (LRT) even with WOW and just outside of MS. Bodexpress (BX) outside of LRT and maybe a head behind.

2:03 MS still on lead but has moved inside to halfway between tire track and fence.WOW moving up - but now the lane is open. Stays in lane - note tire track. LRT / BX / and Country House (CH) 1/4 length back and 4 across.

2:06 MS in front. Now 2 lanes outside of tire track. WOW had to check. LRT and BX lose momentum.

Note: To me - this is the point in the race the infraction took place. I haven't read through all the replies (wanted to be unbiased). Had WOW clipped heels and went down - the result would probably been catastrophic!

Given the heightened sense of awareness for thoroughbred safety - the result for the industry would have been devastating!

Observation:

Reviewing the replay - the cause was probably the result of MS drifting towards the fence (2:03) and possibly was startled by crowd noise (most likely) or an overcorrection by the jockey to straighten him out (least likely) and subsequently veering in front of WOW. As the race continues, MS actually veers back to the fence and almost (?) bumps Code of Honor (COH) who shot through the opening.

Conclusion:
* The stewards call was correct. There was an infraction that could have caused a tragic outcome.

* The infraction was not the result of an intentional act.

* The jockeys of all horses involved should be commended for their quick reactions to prevent the worst case scenario.

* Subjective reasoning of who was the best horse / which horses had no chance / jockey or trainer intentions / wagers / etc. should have no bearing on the decision. Stewards cannot refer to the "unwritten rulebook" as a basis for their ruling.

Personal note: As I was watching the race - I noticed something had occurred during that part of the race. As the camera view changed, I thought WOW had got through and was now on the lead. The pink silks of both jockeys looked alike. I was shouting loud enough that the entire neighborhood could hear!! Then my heart sank when I noticed the orange saddle blanket instead of a red one!!!

I am certainly more of a casual fan of the sport than I was years back. But I'm not giving up on it or disposing of my 2007 Derby form or program.

Keep the faith!!! PTM
Absolutely agree with YOU - that could have been devastating - It is a miracle War of Will did not go down - Thank God for that. I too thought War of Will got through then I saw the orange...
May they run with the WIND
sweettalk
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:05 pm

Sun May 05, 2019 8:40 pm

Treve wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:40 am
sweettalk wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:12 pm
Miss Woodford wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 7:50 pm
The thing is, it doesn't matter if Country House was directly impacted. If Maximum Security impeded any of the other horses he had to be DQ'd, and the rest of the horses moved up in placing.
then should we not have inquiries every year, since the start is chaos and we've seen loads of horses impacted and have to be taken up? there's no consistency at all in what matters, what constitutes a DQ, etc. if it was the right call, then they've missed a lot of other right calls.

inconsistency doesn't necessarily make this the wrong call, but that's where i bet a LOT the vitriol and controversy is coming from.

edit; this reads snarkier than i mean it to. it's not nasty, in my head, and i'm sorry to anyone who read it as nasty. just an observation, since a lot of times we see overhead shots of the bumper cars that is the start but i don't recall any inquiries from it, adding to the inconsistency observation.
This is what I believe. I think this call was the right one, but that doesn't erase past inconsistencies, nor do inconsistencies prevent this from being the right call.
I think of last year's Oaks and how everyone reacted to there even being an objection, saying it was poor sportsmenship etc. etc. Yet the front replay to me clearly showed MG knocking WG off stride - and pushing out. As she has done numerous times before and since, she got away with it in Kentucky but got served in Delaware.

About the start... I think one of the things is some horses who have been severely impacted at the start have still managed to finish ahead of the horses who impeded them. I thought there was also an unspoken understanding that because the Derby is the cavalry charge that it is, most jockeys are more forgiving and chalk it up to bad luck. It's also possible most people thought that because in the past in major events a horse didn't come down that should have, most of them figure it's not worth it.

Plus see how people are piling on Prat right now and see how people said some... not very nice things about Johnny V for filing an objection against Monomoy Girl last year in the Oaks. He can afford it but imagine if it was a lesser known or accomplished jock? Might end his career right there. Some jocks probably think for that reason alone it's not worth it to object.
(for the record, i do think a DQ was in order)
your second paragraph sums up my inconsistent idea - "well it was dangerous but they finished ahead of the horse who could have caused a wipe out so it's ok!" while one opinion re: yesterday is "no one was gonna pass MS anyway, so it should be ok!" if one isn't ok, the other shouldn't be either (tho if you DQ a horse for harsh interference at the start and they finish last, obviously not much you can really do there). a foul is a foul - inconsistency in punishment runs the risk of jocks pushing what they can and can't get away with, assuming they aren't already.

leading us to... MG should probably have also gone down, especially because it's a repeat offense and WG was definitely impacted, having to correct her balance at least once. back in 1998, this happened in the belmont, though those stewards said later that had RQ won, he would have been DQ'd (tho many are skeptical since it'd a be a TC winner). regardless, in this scenario the bumper did win, and these stewards decided NOT to DQ. :?: :?: :?:

there's an interesting article that Insane Crazy linked but it's not garnered much attention;
https://racingthinktank.com/reports/tif ... ging-rules

again, with emotions probably still running high, i want reiterate that i'm not intending any sarcasm or argumentativeness, and i'm sorry if it reads that way.
User avatar
Starine
Posts: 4831
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Sun May 05, 2019 8:51 pm

stark wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:34 pm
I hope Gary West doesn't wind up sounding like Steve Coburn after Chrome's Belmont.

https://www.drf.com/news/west-contempla ... eral-court
The Wests Threaten to Get Out of Racing
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/th ... of-racing/

Columnists Sound Off On Kentucky Derby Disqualification
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/trip ... ification/
barbaro111
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:43 pm

Sun May 05, 2019 9:58 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... 6c86e1615f

An article from the Washington Post-- this is a not-so-nice article about the horse racing industry----
Catalina
Posts: 3664
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: South Texas

Sun May 05, 2019 10:14 pm

Starine wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:34 pm
My initial reaction was no; he was much the best.

But the more I watched the replays, it became harder and harder to ignore the several horses he bothered at such a critical junction of the race.
Same here.
User avatar
Miss Woodford
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Sun May 05, 2019 10:23 pm

Both Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani have tweeted their disapproval of the steward's decision. This is confirmation that the correct decision was made.
User avatar
Northport
Posts: 2363
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:13 pm
Location: probably near the food

Sun May 05, 2019 10:31 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:58 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... 6c86e1615f

An article from the Washington Post-- this is a not-so-nice article about the horse racing industry----
There's no better way to denote that you don't understand, and never want to understand, the horse industry, when you complain multiple times about how dirty the horses are post-race.
weeeeeeeee
MySaladDays
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:16 am

Mon May 06, 2019 12:56 am

After I saw this, 100% agree.

Unreal. Head on shows max veering across 5 lanes. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would think this was okay.

https://twitter.com/CarsoniPH/status/11 ... t%3D152036
Izvestia
Posts: 4060
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:16 am

Mon May 06, 2019 1:06 am

That head on really shows it.

When I defended the decision, I actually had someone say the stewards violated a serious moral law yesterday...
sweettalk
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:05 pm

Mon May 06, 2019 1:55 am

Izvestia wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:06 am
That head on really shows it.

When I defended the decision, I actually had someone say the stewards violated a serious moral law yesterday...
yeah, after i calmed down, yowza. that was absolutely a good call. it's still rough to digest based on the already multi-mentioned points, and i do still think they could have handled it differently, but what that differently is, i don't have an answer. a few ideas, nothing different than what's been suggested, but it takes a special kind of stupid to say the stewards were wrong.
User avatar
ElPrado2
Posts: 2194
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:45 pm

Mon May 06, 2019 4:46 am

While we are arguing all of this from now until 2063, I hope they do a scan of MS' right front sometime.
Changing leads early could have been the sign of an ouch. Little ouches become bigger.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
Posts: 1596
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Mon May 06, 2019 6:42 am

stark wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:34 pm
I hope Gary West doesn't wind up sounding like Steve Coburn after Chrome's Belmont.

https://www.drf.com/news/west-contempla ... eral-court
This is so unkind and unfair in multiple ways. Human beings are...human! Who knew.

Mr. West said it best. He's been in the business 40 years, spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the sport trying to win the Derby, and they take it all away from him. Plus they left his wife standing there holding the roses for nearly a half hour while the stewards deliberated. That was a truly bad situation all around. How would you feel in his place?
Somnambulist

Mon May 06, 2019 9:06 am

How he feels about it is not the point. The horse impeded several others. How should those owners and connections feel?

You're not entitled to anything just because you put money into it.
stark
Posts: 5430
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Mon May 06, 2019 10:48 am

I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
User avatar
starrydreamer
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:51 am

Mon May 06, 2019 11:48 am

Somnambulist wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:06 am
How he feels about it is not the point. The horse impeded several others. How should those owners and connections feel?

You're not entitled to anything just because you put money into it.
This. My dad keeps texting me about how so much money was lost etc etc and well, ya know, nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. Like PostTimeMike, my eyes were glued to War of Will for much of the race and I gave a strangled yelp when he swung out to make his move and Maximum Security veered out into his path. I can't imagine how War of Will's actual connections felt in those few seconds. It was the right call.

I take issue with the way the stewards' handled it. I'm sure because they were too busy making such a big decision, they failed to mention that there was a second objection (by Long Range Toddy's jockey) AND what amounted to a stewards' inquiry. But this information would have been important at the time and I think would have gone a long way toward clearing up the confusion. Because the way they made it sound was that Country House's jock made an objection, the stewards agreed with him, and then placed Maximum Security behind him in second.
User avatar
ElPrado2
Posts: 2194
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:45 pm

Mon May 06, 2019 11:49 am

I abjectly apologize for anyone making Mr West's wife hold a bouquet. I didn't realize that that was such a great hardship.
Post Reply