Lack of top outcross sires

racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:45 pm

I was trying to think of outcross stallions (no Mr. Prospector or northern Dancer) who are alive and currently standing in north America ranked and in the top 100 of the General Sire List. I could only find three....Yes Its True, Mizzen Mast and Stephen got Even. Kind of sad. With Dynaformer, Runaway Groom, Holy Bull, Slew City Slew, Cozzene,etc among the recent outcrosses to depart from breeding, it looks like nobody has stepped up to take their place. I just like keeping the diversity of the bloodlines. But, I don't want a stallion just because he is an outcross if he is not a top ranked sire. Tricky. I don't want us to breed ourselves into a corner and end up with 4 crosses to Mr Prospector and 6 to Northern Dancer!! I sure do hope some outcrosses step up and become top ranked sires…...
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:44 pm

What about Einstein? He's definitely an outcross and he got two winners (E Equalsmcsquared and Theoryofrelativity) from his first two starters.
TBird
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:51 pm

The reason those two stallions are so prevelant in American pedigrees is that both sires have worked enormously well to produce good racehorses. For that reason, very few breeders are looking to breed away from them. That being said, there are several current top 20 sires who have only one cross to either Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector within their first five generations (Giant's Causeway, Macho Uno, and Candy Ride). Someone looking to outcross (as far as just ND and Mr. P are concerned) could breed a mare with Mr. Prospector to Giant's Causeway, for example. Or a mare with Northern Dancer in her pedigree to Macho Uno.

Interesting that none of the three sires you cited as being free of both ND and Mr. P are top ranked horses. So obviously being outcrosses for the general American mare population isn't helping them to achieve success as sires.
racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:56 pm

He has northern Dancer within 4 generations. I was also looking for a more proven stallion…..but thanks!!

I would add that the deceased Deputed Testamony was a good regional sire as was Raffie's Majesty.

But, I am seriously worried about the lack of top class NATIONAL outcross sires that are GOOD sires and not just outcrosses.

I'm currently tracking Hat Trick among others but nobody has replaced the Broad Brush type as of yet. Not one single stallion.

I feel we are truly at a crossroad in breeding as I can't remember a time when the genetic pool was so incredibly limited as it is right now. Just stunning that we have reached this point….
racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:01 pm

Tbird, the three sires I mentioned are all in the top 100 of the General Leading Sire list which was my basic requirement. That is why I did not add the dozen or so outcross stallions that fail to make the national sire list. In fact, both Yes Its True and mizzen Mast are in the top 50 so I wouldn't exactly call them crap.

It wasn't that long ago when there were several top sires who were outcrosses. Broad Brush, Skywalker, Dynaformer, Cozzene, Pleasant Tap, Wild Again to name just a few.

I have never before seen a time when there were so few top outcross stallions offered. Very sad and disheartening.

Genetic diversity is always a good thing…..
TBird
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:18 pm

I'm quite certain that I didn't call any of your three outcross stallions "crap". I merely pointed out that they are not as successful in their sire careers as many other sires who are related to either Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector. Basically it sounds as though you are disheartened by breeders flocking to what works and staying away from what doesn't.

If you are saddened by the loss of Broad Brush, his son, Include, might interest you.
racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:25 pm

No, I am a breeder and and am saddened by the fact we are all breeding ourselves into a corner. I don't think people understand the significance of losing genetic bloodlines and diversity. But, they will in a few more generations.

What works with the cross you mentioned is brilliant but unsound runners. Just look at the number of starts the majority of our heavily bred Mr. Prospector x Northern Dancer horses make in their careers before they break down. It's laughable. 3-5 starts in one year is not a "normal" average. Just flip through the stallion register and they are all a dime a dozen with the same pedigrees and race stats.
TBird
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:21 pm

I think you are painting with a very broad brush to blame the Northern Dancer/Mr. P cross for the current unsoundness--or perceived unsoundness--in the TB breed. There are many, many reasons for the fact that racehorses are making fewer starts than their ancestors did. I personally wouldn't put genetics (especially not just those 2 particular sires who had 32 starts between them) anywhere near the top of the list. For what it's worth, every single horse that I've bred has had one or the other of those two stallions in its pedigree (and often both) and over the last ten years, they've averaged 18 starts so far (not counting the current 2yo crop) and many of those are still racing.

Just out of curiosity...did you breed to Holy Bull, Dynaformer and Cozzene when they were available?
racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:34 pm

Tbird……it's just about having the option of genetic diversity available to us. It's simple genetics. Do I want to see a horse with 4 Mr. Prospector's and 6 Northern Dancer's in a couple generations. No. Of course not but I fear that is where we are headed.

We need some pure outcrosses (who are great stallions and racehorses) to help mix things up!

Am I opposed to the Mr. Prospector x Northern Dancer cross…hell no! My current 2yo homebred is by City Zip out of a SW Northern Dancer bred mare. But, do I want to keep breeding the same cross back over and over…not really.

Yes, I bred to Cozzene and got a homebred stakes winner. I also bred to Prized (hoping for a filly).

I also bought a really nice outcross mare at Fasig-Tipton by Wild Again and bred her to Indygo Shiner -twice. I was quite partial to Wild again.

My first racehorse that I bought at auction was a Runaway Groom. Yes, if I had the money I would have gone to Rahy. Actually, I can't believe it took me this long too mention him!!

Likewise, if I could have gone to Dynaformer I would have but settled for a Kris S bred mare I bought a Keeneland. She went on to produce a Listed Stakes horse when bred to a mr. Prospector x Northern Dancer bred stud (Sky Mesa).

I guess I just really like having the different bloodlines available to mix with the Mr. Prospector x Northern Dancer crosses. I think it makes for a much sounder gene pool.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:51 pm

If you can afford to send a mare to him, and can wait until he returns to Kentucky, Animal Kingdom could be a really good choice for an outcross, even though he isn't a proven stud yet. He does have Northern Dancer twice in his 5th generation, but that would be pushed back to the 6th generation in his foals.

Tiznow has Northern Dancer 4x4 in his pedigree, but that pushes back to 5x5 in his foals.

Another stallion who would make a good outcross for any mare with Northern Dancer and/or Mr. Prospector/Raise a Native pedigrees is Friesan Fire. Unfortunately, he's at a small farm (where Malibu Moon started his stud career), and might never have the chance to rise in the stallion ranks. And he isn't a proven stud, as his first foals were born this year.

Hat Trick would be a good choice.

Of course, a lot depends on what you could afford, how far you could ship your mare, the mare's own characteristics, etc. Here's a BloodHorse article from 2008 on this very subject that might be of some help to you: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/scot/arc ... ymore.aspx Lots of good ideas in the comments section of this article.

If money was no object, I'd look for the best possible German stallion. The Germans breed good horses, and they are outcrosses to almost all the fashionable bloodlines in England, Ireland and here.
racingfan
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:54 pm

Ridan,

Yes, I remember when that article first came out!! Unfortunately, people think just because a stallion is an outcross that makes him magically a great sire! Wrong!!!! Most of the stallions people commented on when the article first came out where simply outcross stallions with no regard to their ability to consistently sire top racehorses.

I am talking about replacing the likes of Dynaformer, Rahy, Kris S, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Cozzene, AP Indy, etc…….
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Miss Woodford
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:32 pm

Alphabet Soup is still around.
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:37 pm

And his daughter, Egg Drop, just won the G1 Matriarch at Hollypark in a very gutsy performance. You thought Honor Code showed heart? Discreet Marq had clearly pulled ahead of Egg Drop, but she battled back along the rail to win by a nose. Very nice.
Joltman
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:53 pm

While he doesn't get top mention, languishing in La til recently, K One King, now in Ky, was a solid runner and one of the very few carrying forward the Round Table line. Would that one of his sons would catch fire and go to stud in Ky. But $3500 is way crazy for him.

jm
middleground
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:20 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:

If money was no object, I'd look for the best possible German stallion. The Germans breed good horses, and they are outcrosses to almost all the fashionable bloodlines in England, Ireland and here.
I've had a Monsun broodmare (or two) on my wish list for a long time. There was one at the November sales; I think (?) the people who bought Eblouissante got her.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:34 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:And his daughter, Egg Drop, just won the G1 Matriarch at Hollypark in a very gutsy performance. You thought Honor Code showed heart? Discreet Marq had clearly pulled ahead of Egg Drop, but she battled back along the rail to win by a nose. Very nice.
Yep, Alphabet Soup is still alive and breeding. And that was a very nice win by Egg Drop.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 pm

middleground wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:

If money was no object, I'd look for the best possible German stallion. The Germans breed good horses, and they are outcrosses to almost all the fashionable bloodlines in England, Ireland and here.
I've had a Monsun broodmare (or two) on my wish list for a long time. There was one at the November sales; I think (?) the people who bought Eblouissante got her.
If I was a breeder who could afford to keep homebred stock, I'd try very hard to get a couple of good Monsun mares and a top-class German-bred stallion. Then I'd try to do what the great breeders of the past did with their bands of mares. Just as someone earlier in this thread described it.
horsefan
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Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:06 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:What about Einstein? He's definitely an outcross and he got two winners (E Equalsmcsquared and Theoryofrelativity) from his first two starters.
I agree about Einstein.
BaroqueAgain1
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Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:20 am

With an Einstein foal, you don't feel like it's locked in to just being a turf runner, or just a dirt runner...or even a synthetic specialist. That horse could run...and win...on anything. :D
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Miss Woodford
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Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:55 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:With an Einstein foal, you don't feel like it's locked in to just being a turf runner, or just a dirt runner...or even a synthetic specialist. That horse could run...and win...on anything. :D
Same with Acclamation, and he also has an interesting outcross pedigree (besides the one cross to ND) http://www.pedigreequery.com/acclamation5
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