Stallion News

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Treve
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:46 am

Read that yesterday on the go!
It was really interesting and informative.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
SSilence86
Posts: 148
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:02 pm

Talks are now underway to bring back Take Charge Indy to WinStar. President & chief executive officer Elliott Walden admits that it was a mistake to sell him.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... ndy-to-u-s
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Northport
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:15 pm

:roll: :roll:

"We made a mistake to sell him, but if you were to wait to see how everything plays out, then that is the wrong decision most of the time," Walden said March 26. "WinStar is in the business of making deals. (WinStar owner) Kenny (Troutt) loves the business and loves the horses but sometimes you have to make decisions to keep the farm sustainable over the long term."

I understand that it is a business, and usually have no complaints when a tried and tested (and mediocre) stallion is sold to Turkey, Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc. But WinStar is so quick to retire bleh or up and coming horses with a single G1 win and just as quick to sell them if they don't light up the sales ring or racetrack with their first crop. For a place that is in the business of making deals, they're not looking like terribly savvy dealmakers right now.

If I were the KRA, I would hesitate to send the horse back. It's known that they made "an offer that couldn't be refused" when they bought him, so it would take even more than that to sell him back to WinStar. If they keep him, he could be their Sunday Silence.
weeeeeeeee
BaroqueAgain1
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:39 pm

KRA appears to desire the A.P. Indy line, as they also bought Girolamo (A.P. Indy x Get Lucky/Mr. Prospector) last fall, but at least he had the chance to provide the US with six crops.
Maybe Winstar's poor decision (which is likely to be an expensive one) will motivate them and other breeding farms to NOT sell their young stallions before the offspring race. And maybe not until at least two or three crops make it to the races. :P
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Treve
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:47 pm

Northport wrote::roll: :roll:

"We made a mistake to sell him, but if you were to wait to see how everything plays out, then that is the wrong decision most of the time," Walden said March 26. "WinStar is in the business of making deals. (WinStar owner) Kenny (Troutt) loves the business and loves the horses but sometimes you have to make decisions to keep the farm sustainable over the long term."

I understand that it is a business, and usually have no complaints when a tried and tested (and mediocre) stallion is sold to Turkey, Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc. But WinStar is so quick to retire bleh or up and coming horses with a single G1 win and just as quick to sell them if they don't light up the sales ring or racetrack with their first crop. For a place that is in the business of making deals, they're not looking like terribly savvy dealmakers right now.

If I were the KRA, I would hesitate to send the horse back. It's known that they made "an offer that couldn't be refused" when they bought him, so it would take even more than that to sell him back to WinStar. If they keep him, he could be their Sunday Silence.
There was a buy-back clause in the sales contract, I don't think they'll have a choice.
As for the business of making deals... that's the problem. You'll get more for a stallion that isn't proven yet at the races, than you would selling a tried and tested and "mediocre" stallion. So with that notion in mind (maximum profits) he's right about "waiting to see how everything plays out" is a wrong decision most of the time. Where that model fails spectacularly though, is that it doesn't take into account that horses are not numbers, and while thoroughbred breeding and racing is a business it's also an art form, and short term losses can me long term gains (just as short term gains can be long term losses). Plus, especially in the case of a stallion like TCI with that pedigree on him, it would've been worth building him up. Keep his stud fee low until his offspring hit the track, cut deals to good mares... Stallions can be "made" up to a point after all.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Private Thoughts
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:25 pm

Treve wrote:Where that model fails spectacularly though, is that it doesn't take into account that horses are not numbers, and while thoroughbred breeding and racing is a business it's also an art form, and short term losses can me long term gains (just as short term gains can be long term losses). Plus, especially in the case of a stallion like TCI with that pedigree on him, it would've been worth building him up. Keep his stud fee low until his offspring hit the track, cut deals to good mares... Stallions can be "made" up to a point after all.
Exactly! It's not like he comes from a family of nags or one hit wonders.

Maybe they should have a word with Ken Ramsey, he "made" a top class stallion out of Kitten's Joy, by doing just as you suggested. He can be an irritating sort, but I will give him credit for having faith in his stallion and making him a champion.
BaroqueAgain1
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:43 pm

Another reason to be patient with a new stallion is that his foal crops may change from year to year, depending on the types of mares he gets.
Scat Daddy likely got speedy mares with his first few crops, as indicated by his huge success with sprinters like Acapulco, Lady Aurelia, & Caravaggio, but then I think Coolmore started breeding him to 'stouter' mares, giving us Derby hopefuls like Combatant, Flameaway and Mendelssohn. It still hurts to think of what might have been with that stallion, whose last crop are two-year-olds this year. :(
SSilence86
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:12 pm

I knew as soon as the TCI's starting winning they'd rethink their decision.
One Noble Indy won, I figure they may try...
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Northport
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:08 pm

I would love to hear from someone in contract law regarding buy back clauses. I really just can’t see how they would be binding, since once you own a horse, it is your property and you shouldn’t be obligated to give/sell it back to the person who sold it to you, particularly when the horse turns out to be a success, not because it has declined in popularity in Japan, Korea, etc. Or because it has been pensioned.

Whenever I see stallions who are still actively breeding return to their countries of origin, it’s new farms and partnerships buying them, like Empire Maker or Workforce. The first because he was a success, the second because he wasn’t getting runners in Japan and looks like he could be a better jumps sire. War Emblem wasn’t a buyback, so it really just is pensioners Silver Charm and Charismatic that seemed to have those clauses carried out. Though, from the way it was described, it seemed to be more of an act of good faith on behalf of the JBBA, Michael Blowen, and the Lewis Family.
weeeeeeeee
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Ridan_Remembered
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:41 pm

SSilence86 wrote:Talks are now underway to bring back Take Charge Indy to WinStar. President & chief executive officer Elliott Walden admits that it was a mistake to sell him.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... ndy-to-u-s
Woohooo! I'm very happy they are at least trying. They lost two breeding seasons with TCI, though.
SSilence86
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:52 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Woohooo! I'm very happy they are at least trying. They lost two breeding seasons with TCI, though.
They wouldn't have, if they had just waited. :roll:

I find it amusing that they just now realised the mistake. I knew it would come to pass when one by one they started winning.

If they do get him back (it's gonna cost them!), I hope for an uneventful trip home & quarantine.
I'm sure he'll have a very strong book of mares coming to him.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:07 pm

Northport wrote:I would love to hear from someone in contract law regarding buy back clauses.
Buyback clause is a provision in a contract that allows the seller of property the right or opportunity to repurchase the property under stated conditions. https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/buy-back-clause/

We will have to see what happens, of course, but there are two entirely different legal jurisdictions and traditions in the two countries. How strong is the buyback clause and is it enforceable under Korean law.
Point Given
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:19 pm

SSilence86 wrote:Talks are now underway to bring back Take Charge Indy to WinStar. President & chief executive officer Elliott Walden admits that it was a mistake to sell him.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... ndy-to-u-s
"We have been rooting for Take Charge Indy all year and are gratified to have bred his best horse," Walden continued. "Just because we made a bad business decision doesn't take anything away from the accomplishments of the stallion."

Huh? No, if anything every accomplishment is magnified and makes their decision look more idiotic.

Like the rest of you, I hated to see such a tremendous pedigree leave the country. Best wishes to Take Charge Indy for a safe and productive return to the U.S.
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Miss Woodford
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:11 am

Northport wrote:I would love to hear from someone in contract law regarding buy back clauses. I really just can’t see how they would be binding, since once you own a horse, it is your property and you shouldn’t be obligated to give/sell it back to the person who sold it to you, particularly when the horse turns out to be a success, not because it has declined in popularity in Japan, Korea, etc. Or because it has been pensioned.

Whenever I see stallions who are still actively breeding return to their countries of origin, it’s new farms and partnerships buying them, like Empire Maker or Workforce. The first because he was a success, the second because he wasn’t getting runners in Japan and looks like he could be a better jumps sire. War Emblem wasn’t a buyback, so it really just is pensioners Silver Charm and Charismatic that seemed to have those clauses carried out. Though, from the way it was described, it seemed to be more of an act of good faith on behalf of the JBBA, Michael Blowen, and the Lewis Family.
Hansel was a buy-back. He stood privately at Lazy Lane (the farm that bred and raced him) for several years after returning from Japan.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:57 am

As of this morning about 7AM eastern time there are 155 comments on the Bloodhorse.com story about WinStar trying to buy back TCI.
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serenassong
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:21 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Northport wrote:I would love to hear from someone in contract law regarding buy back clauses.
Buyback clause is a provision in a contract that allows the seller of property the right or opportunity to repurchase the property under stated conditions. https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/buy-back-clause/

We will have to see what happens, of course, but there are two entirely different legal jurisdictions and traditions in the two countries. How strong is the buyback clause and is it enforceable under Korean law.
Yes, and there could have also been a provision in there that they could get the horse back in a certain amount of time and certain conditions- i.e.- his foals light the world on fire- like they are doing now. We will probably never know- contracts can contain just about everything and have every contingency covered.
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Horsebagger
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Northport wrote:I would love to hear from someone in contract law regarding buy back clauses. I really just can’t see how they would be binding, since once you own a horse, it is your property and you shouldn’t be obligated to give/sell it back to the person who sold it to you, particularly when the horse turns out to be a success, not because it has declined in popularity in Japan, Korea, etc. Or because it has been pensioned.

Whenever I see stallions who are still actively breeding return to their countries of origin, it’s new farms and partnerships buying them, like Empire Maker or Workforce. The first because he was a success, the second because he wasn’t getting runners in Japan and looks like he could be a better jumps sire. War Emblem wasn’t a buyback, so it really just is pensioners Silver Charm and Charismatic that seemed to have those clauses carried out. Though, from the way it was described, it seemed to be more of an act of good faith on behalf of the JBBA, Michael Blowen, and the Lewis Family.
Provisions within any executed contract are never selectively or arbitrarily binding.
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Treve
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:14 pm

Not to mention that even in the unlikely event that the contract might not be enforceable under Korean law, I'm pretty sure that "giving the metaphorical finger by breaching your contract" is a terrible business decision short and long term.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Horsebagger
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Treve wrote:Not to mention that even in the unlikely event that the contract might not be enforceable under Korean law, I'm pretty sure that "giving the metaphorical finger by breaching your contract" is a terrible business decision short and long term.
Unless the respective legal firms sent in their interns to draft their first international contract, there almost certainly is a provision dictating the governing law that applies to the terms of the contract.

And i'd be comfortable in suggesting this isn't the first international contract ever executed by Winstar, or their legal counsel.
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Treve
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Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:35 pm

Horsebagger wrote:
Treve wrote:Not to mention that even in the unlikely event that the contract might not be enforceable under Korean law, I'm pretty sure that "giving the metaphorical finger by breaching your contract" is a terrible business decision short and long term.
Unless the respective legal firms sent in their interns to draft their first international contract, there almost certainly is a provision dictating the governing law that applies to the terms of the contract.

And i'd be comfortable in suggesting this isn't the first international contract ever executed by Winstar, or their legal counsel.
Yeah, that's mostly my view on it, hence why I deemed it unlikely ;)

Especially given they've been specifically doing a lot of business with the China Horse Club and the KRA.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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