Most overrated horses

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Horsebagger
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:47 am

Someone's fixin for a little skirmish this morning, huh?
Kay16
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:55 am

Years from now, some kid's going to read about Wise Dan somewhere, see the list of awards he's received and think he had to of been one of the greatest of all time. Then that kid will look at Wise Dan's record and laugh.
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Ballerina
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:55 am

Since it would just be a repeat of what already has been hashed, I'll pass.
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Kurenai
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:03 am

I thought that award went to Frankel a while ago! :lol: (He did stretch out though! :P )
Kay16
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:10 am

Kurenai wrote:I thought that award went to Frankel a while ago! :lol: (He did stretch out though! :P )

I was never awe struck by Frankel like some, and I wouldn't list him as one of the greatest with the likes of Man o' War, Secretariat, Kelso, etc. But I must say dominating horses like St. Nicholas Abbey, Excelebration, Cirrus Des Aigles, etc ...well yea Wise Dan wouldn't have stood a chance.


Oh and stretching out to win at 1 1/4, and 1 5/16 gets him extra points as well.
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Della
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:24 am

Really? Another bash Wise Dan thread? Let it go....move on.... etc, etc.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:25 am

Everybody's got an opinion. Some are more worthless than others.
blamethewinner
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:27 am

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Everybody's got an opinion. Some are more worthless than others.
This is good...admission is the first step to recovery.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:44 am

blamethewinner wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Everybody's got an opinion. Some are more worthless than others.
This is good...admission is the first step to recovery.
Hey, it's not quite 7:30am where I live. Just woke up and am disappointed to see this thread first thing in the morning. This sport has so many problems. Wise Dan is definitely NOT one of them. The constant drumbeat of negativity about him is discouraging and disheartening. I look at Wise Dan's story and see that his human team loves him, takes excellent care of him, and are having the time of their lives thanks to their horse. That's enough for me. Clearly it's not enough for other people, which is their problem, not the problem of the horse or his people.

I shouldn't have even clicked on this thread, but like a moth to flame... Was going to try to delete my too-hasty response, but you jumped on it before I had the chance. Oh well. Nothing I can do about people who want to wallow in negative emptiness.

It's going to be another beautiful day here in Los Angeles. I'm going out and enjoy it.
Kay16
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:51 am

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
blamethewinner wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Everybody's got an opinion. Some are more worthless than others.
This is good...admission is the first step to recovery.
Hey, it's not quite 7:30am where I live. Just woke up and am disappointed to see this thread first thing in the morning. This sport has so many problems. Wise Dan is definitely NOT one of them. The constant drumbeat of negativity about him is discouraging and disheartening. I look at Wise Dan's story and see that his human team loves him, takes excellent care of him, and are having the time of their lives thanks to their horse. That's enough for me. Clearly it's not enough for other people, which is their problem, not the problem of the horse or his people.

I shouldn't have even clicked on this thread, but like a moth to flame... Was going to try to delete my too-hasty response, but you jumped on it before I had the chance. Oh well. Nothing I can do about people who want to wallow in negative emptiness.

It's going to be another beautiful day here in Los Angeles. I'm going out and enjoy it.

I know plenty of people who take great care of their horses, love them, and have the time of their lives with them. What does that have to do with the eclipse awards or a horse being overrated or not again?
harvestmoon
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:11 pm

Havre de Grace. Nice horse, but I don't really think her schedule was HOTY worthy. Of course, the pickings were slim that year, but I probably would've gone with Game On Dude. 2 G1 wins in open company, as opposed to just 1. Plus a better finish in the Classic.

Just my opinion, though.
Sound of Freedom
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:22 pm

Rachel Alexandra was overrated. Looking back it is hard to argue she ever beat a very good horse, with maybe the exception of Summer Bird, and not sure what to even think of him.

She was exposed at 4. Now that all said, she was a great horse, just not what many thought she was.


Wise Dan is a great grass miler, and versatile enough to nearly win the Foster, but two time HOY's usually have tougher schedules, like a Curlin.
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Oldowan
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:27 pm

I don't do "overrated" because how do you define overrated?

"Overrated" can only apply to "rated", and people almost always rate a horse based on historical greatness, an argument based on accomplishments and talent that can never be settled.

Getting some Eclipse votes you disagree with =/= a horse's actual talent on the track. What you're looking for here is "I disagree with Eclipse voters", not "Wise Dan is overrated".

Unless you're going to explain HOW he's overrated compared to other American turf milers in history. And before you do that, you're going to have to point out which ratings his fans have given him compared to those same turf milers ("Wise Dan is the best turf miler in American history", a claim which I personally have never seen made, etc.).
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Admin wrote:And there's the "overrated" factor of fans such as yourself who can't take any criticism of the horse and his awards as well.
Oh I can take the criticism, but this isn't about me. What disturbs me is the constant drumbeat of negativity directed against the horse. Your title is "Most overrated horses," so it IS against the horse.

Near as I can figure out the complaint, it is that Wise Dan's people didn't run THEIR horse in races that people who don't pay Morton Fink's bills wanted them to run him. What? People weren't entertained enough? Or maybe Dan was too short a price in his races and people want bigger odds on him? What? Is it Roman circus time? Do people want the horse pushed so much that he joins the ever-growing list of horses who die on the racetrack? What, if anything, will satisfy the critics?

I look around the onrushing train wreck that is the sport of Thoroughbred racing in the United States and see a whole heck of a lot more to criticize than Wise Dan and his people. Thanks to Tachyon on this forum, I've learned a little about racing in Japan. I see huge crowds there and in other countries. Our racing used to draw such crowds. There are multiple reasons why it doesn't anymore, including the fact that our star horses are here and gone so fast it makes your head spin. So I think by taking care of their horse, Wise Dan's people are doing something good for the horse, for themselves and for the sport. I see absolutely nothing in that to criticize.
Stormin Wife
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:30 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
blamethewinner wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Everybody's got an opinion. Some are more worthless than others.
This is good...admission is the first step to recovery.
Hey, it's not quite 7:30am where I live. Just woke up and am disappointed to see this thread first thing in the morning. This sport has so many problems. Wise Dan is definitely NOT one of them. The constant drumbeat of negativity about him is discouraging and disheartening. I look at Wise Dan's story and see that his human team loves him, takes excellent care of him, and are having the time of their lives thanks to their horse. That's enough for me. Clearly it's not enough for other people, which is their problem, not the problem of the horse or his people.

I shouldn't have even clicked on this thread, but like a moth to flame... Was going to try to delete my too-hasty response, but you jumped on it before I had the chance. Oh well. Nothing I can do about people who want to wallow in negative emptiness.

It's going to be another beautiful day here in Los Angeles. I'm going out and enjoy it.

Well said!
Somnambulist

Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:40 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote: I shouldn't have even clicked on this thread, but like a moth to flame... Was going to try to delete my too-hasty response, but you jumped on it before I had the chance. Oh well. Nothing I can do about people who want to wallow in negative emptiness.

It's going to be another beautiful day here in Los Angeles. I'm going out and enjoy it.
Aren't you the poster who is forever stating that you have no idea why things get personal on this forum?
thinair
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Admin wrote:My nominee: Wise Dan

A very nice horse, a great turf miler, but his collection of Eclipse hardware has to put him near the top of the most overrated horses of all time.
Only if you use Eclipse awards to incorrectly judge a horse.....though it does make some sense. From that perspective, he is unquestionably as overrated a horse as I can think of.
Rick1323
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:05 pm

From recent history I has to be Bodemeister. A "nice" horse who could flash enough ability to make people continually bet him down to less than even money. I can remember saying in here that he was a "bet against" on 3 different occasions and being laughed at for it. He was the definition of seconditis.......

Having said that, when you use Eclipse awards as a barometer, Dan is tough to top......
Everyone come home sound.....
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:12 pm

Admin wrote:But the fact is that this horse has been handed multiple championships that put him in rare air -- without EARNING some of those championships. Used to be -- when Secretariat and Fager and such won multiple divisional championships in a single year -- that the horse actually won those championships on the track. If they won the Sprinter award, they actually won a big sprint. If they won the Older Male award, they actually won a big dirt route. If they won the Turf Male award, they actually won a big turf race.

Those who voted or thought Wise Dan "deserved" older male did so on the basis of thinking the competition in the dirt routing division was suspect. Well, what about Wise Dan himself being suspect, not winning even an allowance in the division? What about Wise Dan being suspect to put him alongside those who actually won top races on both dirt and turf in a single year?
I see. Thank you for clarifying where your concern is centered. Not being an Eclipse Award voter myself, I have no answer for why people vote as they do. Heck, I can't even figure out why people vote for the politicians they do, and that's a lot more important. In an absolutely literal sense, any horse who wins an Eclipse deserves it because the voters freely chose to vote that way. It's exactly the same as when someone is elected president even though nearly half the voters didn't vote for him. Despite the fact that some 45-50 million or so voted against the winning candidate, he still gets to be president of all of us.

If it's any consolation, the type of debate such as you and others have had regarding Wise Dan "only" running on grass, or running "too easy" of a schedule, which leads to some concluding that he doesn't deserve certain year-end honors, is nothing new in the sport. I remember back when the year-end awards were given by three organizations: Turf and Sports Digest, the Thoroughbred Racing Association and Triangle Publications. Some years there was consensus, some years not. And when there was no consensus, you could have two horses being named champion in a given category.

One year when that happened was 1965 when the great 2-year-old filly, Moccasin (full sister to Ridan, btw), was named Horse of the Year over Kelso by Turf and Sports Digest and the Thoroughbred Racing Association. The 4-year-old gelding, Roman Brother, was named Horse of the Year by Triangle Publications, probably for many of the same reasons people today argue against Wise Dan winning some of his awards. Also, fillies very rarely were awarded Horse of the Year back then, and Moccasin still is the only 2-year-old filly to be so named.

As far as I know, until very recently to accommodate the Breeders Cup era, year-end divisional honors had always been by age and sex only: 2, 3, the older male/female categories, and a couple of specialty divisions like turf and steeplechase. Like everything, the sport evolved. Steeplechase used to be a much more valued division and the turf category didn't exist in the U.S. before 1953. There never was some kind of rule that the champion older male/female had to run on dirt. They just ran on dirt because that's where the majority of U.S. races were run. This is a different era. Back then weight carrying was valued. Today not so much. So the fact that Wise Dan carried weight and broke a record doesn't seem to matter to some fans. It is what it is, I suppose, but from my perspective Wise Dan is a genuinely great horse.
halo
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:16 pm

I don't know what about Wise Dan would be considered "overrated". I admit I havent followed him, so I did look at his race record. Theres an awful lot of "1"s there. 19 wins out of 27 starts, won 6 out of 7 last year year, with a second on a track he didnt prefer. 4 grade ones last year, 3 grade ones the previous year. Has won grade 1's 3 years in a row, over 6 million in earnings. Race record is pretty impressive to my mind.

Overrated to me is a horse like Game On Dude. California racing is suspect to me anyway. Such a small pool of good horses race out there, a horse doesnt have to be that much to win the big races out there. His claim to fame is defeating Kettle Corn and You Know I Know in the Pacific Classic, Kettle Corn and Sky Kingdom in the Hollywood Gold Cup, Clubhouse Ride and Call to Serve in the SA Handicap. Pathetic.
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