Breeders Cup Discussion?

Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:34 pm

Kurenai wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:30 pm
No other way to prevent this. But we had that discussion already in another thread, not going to start here too (sorry, I'm just sad at the moment and wish they would have done more, especially since they were under such scrutiny).
All racehorses are weak on one side because they only run counter-clockwise here, right? I'm no professional, but I am ridiculously active. I have conformational problems that have resulted in imbalances, etc. Do you know what helps? Singularly strengthening the hurt side and very much working the other side. Why is this not done in racing. Would it have any merit?
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Kurenai
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:34 pm

Treve wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Looking at the replay it looks like it could've been either or (i.e. break happened before contact, or just at the moment of contact).
Lead change. He shifted all the weight to the other side to switch leads and that broke the bones.
Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:35 pm

Mylute wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:33 pm
It's really hard to say. What are you gonna do with a couple hundred thousand displaced horses and how do you simply end a multimillion, probably billion, international industry?

The government is freaking out about vapes, but then again, they've been threatening to take our guns because crazy people for decades and I still have mine. We also still have cigarettes despite it all.
You phase it out. But this is a 1% hobby. Those go away at a much slower pace.
FlyToTheStars
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:35 pm

Update on Mongolian Groom via Paulick Report:

Re: Mongolian Groom, who was pulled up and vanned off about a furlong out from the finish of the #BC19 Classic--Horse has been radiographed and has fractures in the lower portion of his cannon bone and upper portion of his pastern.Connections are receiving consults from experts and will discuss their options, per last update from @AAEPHorseDocs On Call vet and @roodandriddle surgeon Dr. Al Ruggles.
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Treve
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:36 pm

Greyhound racing has been banned in multiple states by now, it is somewhat naive to think that horse racing is any safer. Look at what happened in Florida, all they had to do was put it on the ballot (with confusing wording to boot) hidden in another bill, spin some tall tales about Greyhound racing and just like that the remaining state with one of the largest racing Greys population suddenly had to rehome 10 000 dogs, and thousands more people loss their jobs with a very specific skillset.

Horse racing can maybe afford to push things back a little because of the deep pockets of the bigger players but even that can only go so far. (RIP Hollywood Park). If PETA spins this, public opinion will sway and next thing you know legislators introduce a bill...
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Kurenai
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:37 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:34 pm
All racehorses are weak on one side because they only run counter-clockwise here, right? I'm no professional, but I am ridiculously active. I have conformational problems that have resulted in imbalances, etc. Do you know what helps? Singularly strengthening the hurt side and very much working the other side. Why is this not done in racing. Would it have any merit?
It is done in racing too. Cantering in the "wrong" direction and the works in the "right" direction to even it out a bit. Also has the advantage that a horse knows when it's "business time" so to speak.

Fun fact: horses in Europe generally don't switch leads. (Don't ask me why, always thought it's an advantage if you do that)
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:37 pm

I don't know if it would have happened on another track; I'm just haunted by the way that race looked at the finish and the reports of how the horse looked working there. We can never know for certain, but we do know that the committee looked at the track in the spring and said "yeah, let's do it." Which led connections to prep and train at the track. Which led to this. The trainer isn't blameless at all, especially given that last work, but if this leads to a California referendum and a subsequent domino effect... he's not the one to blame.

katmandu, do you have an angle on the prognosis? It certainly doesn't sound good.
carole
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:37 pm

Pretty sure Mongolian Groom had that slow work (around 1:03.00) so his trainer put in another one a couple of days later which was quicker (around 1:00.00).
Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:39 pm

Kurenai wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:37 pm
Somnambulist wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:34 pm
All racehorses are weak on one side because they only run counter-clockwise here, right? I'm no professional, but I am ridiculously active. I have conformational problems that have resulted in imbalances, etc. Do you know what helps? Singularly strengthening the hurt side and very much working the other side. Why is this not done in racing. Would it have any merit?
It is done in racing too. Cantering in the "wrong" direction and the works in the "right" direction to even it out a bit. Also has the advantage that a horse knows when it's "business time" so to speak.

Fun fact: horses in Europe generally don't switch leads. (Don't ask me why, always thought it's an advantage if you do that)
I used to work with a decent amount of OTTBS in a therapy horse setting. It was only over a course of a few years, but everytime I got on one I was told to expect this imbalance. I think it's done near you guys a lot more than it here in the states. But I think this leads to problems when muscle fatigue in lead changes and already fatigued muscles call on fatigued muscle groups. I know I recruit the wrong musculature if the surrounding areas are weak.. IDK...

My exp is limited over course of about 3 years with OTTBs. I guess I am upset and throwing mud at the wall hoping it will stick.
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 pm

I've always wondered if it's better to work 2yos in a balanced way or counterclockwise. Developing bones and joints remodel themselves to minimize shear forces, so working them in the same direction they will eventually race may help specifically adapt their skeleton to those conditions. Great point about the musculature though, I genuinely have no idea which aspect if any is more important. Studies have shown that the lead change is the most dangerous part, which was borne out here.

And per our earlier conversational point, Mongolian Groom debuted at 3 :(
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Kurenai
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:45 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:39 pm

I used to work with a decent amount of OTTBS in a therapy horse setting. It was only over a course of a few years, but everytime I got on one I was told to expect this imbalance. I think it's done near you guys a lot more than it here in the states. But I think this leads to problems when muscle fatigue in lead changes and already fatigued muscles call on fatigued muscle groups. I know I recruit the wrong musculature if the surrounding areas are weak.. IDK...

My exp is limited over course of about 3 years with OTTBs. I guess I am upset and throwing mud at the wall hoping it will stick.
I don't know about the states. I only know that the trainer I worked for always made extra sure that when we ride in smaller circles (trott to warm up the whole group) we do it in both directions. We also lunged horses to basically do some "horsey gymnastics", also rode them outside of the track through woods etc (just walking, but they learn to pick up their feet and uneven ground is good for them too, like some hills and stuff).

I got scolded once, because I only lunged a yearling in one direction (that colt HATED the other direction and would come towards me all the time). :oops: :lol:
carole
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:46 pm

carole wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:37 pm
Pretty sure Mongolian Groom had that slow work (around 1:03.00) so his trainer put in another one a couple of days later which was quicker (around 1:00.00).
Huh just looked it up and it’s not listed on equibase but I remember the breeders cup people discussing it on the breeders cup breakfast works show.
Last edited by carole on Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stark
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:46 pm

Gosh, life was much simpler

<snipped by admin>

Not the right time, nor the place for that.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:47 pm

stark wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:46 pm
Gosh, life was much simpler when a few words from Sol Kumin caused your panties to get all bunched up, little did you know what storyline was ahead and something actually worth getting upset about.
You're a terrible person.
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Treve
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:48 pm

I don't think cantering and trotting in the wrong direction (only) wouldn't even it out enough when compared to working and racing since the effort is much higher.
Horses also tend to have a strong and weak side (they can be left or right handed) so I suppose if their naturally weak side on top of everything else is the side that isn't as solicited as much the imbalance would be greater. This would be especially true when expected to switch leads. You see it all the time with hunter jumpers - they tend to be more careful and mitigated when not cantering on their strong side, but be more confident and bold when you're cantering on their strong side. If racehorses are specifically taught to push through that... I wonder.

Another thing I just thought of - we don't have the long, slow, up and down hill training gallops here as they do elsewhere in the world. That type of conditioning would likely help work under used muscle groups which I guess wouldn't strain as much in overcompensation at high speeds.

Either way I feel terrible for the trainer. From the impression I got he will be wracked with guilt.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:50 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 pm
I've always wondered if it's better to work 2yos in a balanced way or counterclockwise. Developing bones and joints remodel themselves to minimize shear forces, so working them in the same direction they will eventually race may help specifically adapt their skeleton to those conditions. Great point about the musculature though, I genuinely have no idea which aspect if any is more important. Studies have shown that the lead change is the most dangerous part, which was borne out here.

And per our earlier conversational point, Mongolian Groom debuted at 3 :(
I remember reading years ago about this trainer who won the Claiming Crown and he galloped his horse the other way. He said he found it so beneficial but that most stables couldn't expend the resources to do this in mornings. I wish I could find it now. I thought it made such crazy good sense at the time since there would be another musculature to call on if the regularly used muscles were fatigued. You can feel this same thing in yourself in any exercise that uses your stabilizers (i.e. donkey kicks, a laying down side leg raise). I admit I am basing all of this off my own exp and knowledge of human sports anatomy but muscle are muscles... IDK.

SIGH.
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Kurenai
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 pm
I've always wondered if it's better to work 2yos in a balanced way or counterclockwise. Developing bones and joints remodel themselves to minimize shear forces, so working them in the same direction they will eventually race may help specifically adapt their skeleton to those conditions. Great point about the musculature though, I genuinely have no idea which aspect if any is more important. Studies have shown that the lead change is the most dangerous part, which was borne out here.

And per our earlier conversational point, Mongolian Groom debuted at 3 :(
It comes down to training methods.

And to compare with humans: it's a bit like bad posture, you can go for years without any pain and then suddenly... Same with horses, it's hard to perfectly balance them out. It's a bit (lack of right terminology in English, sorry) like being left or right handed.

But... we're going off topic here. Better to just focus on the Breeders Cup and have those discussions in the other thread.

@Som: yup! That trainer got it right! That's what it all comes down to. Resources. Just check how long the average US horse gets to spend outside their stall on a daily basis.... there's not much time for "extras". (Also said that in the other thread).
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Katewerk
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:52 pm

stark wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:46 pm
Gosh, life was much simpler when a few words from Sol Kumin caused your panties to get all bunched up, little did you know what storyline was ahead and something actually worth getting upset about.
Do tell.
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:53 pm

Kurenai wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:51 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 pm
I've always wondered if it's better to work 2yos in a balanced way or counterclockwise. Developing bones and joints remodel themselves to minimize shear forces, so working them in the same direction they will eventually race may help specifically adapt their skeleton to those conditions. Great point about the musculature though, I genuinely have no idea which aspect if any is more important. Studies have shown that the lead change is the most dangerous part, which was borne out here.

And per our earlier conversational point, Mongolian Groom debuted at 3 :(
It comes down to training methods.

And to compare with humans: it's a bit like bad posture, you can go for years without any pain and then suddenly... Same with horses, it's hard to perfectly balance them out. It's a bit (lack of right terminology in English, sorry) like being left or right handed.

But... we're going off topic here. Better to just focus on the Breeders Cup and have those discussions in the other thread.
Ha, sorry, I think it's just helping us cope. Feels better to think there's something we can do about all this, especially when we otherwise have to just sit and wait to hear what will almost certainly be bad news :(

I just... so badly want us to do better. And it was such a good day for so long...
Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:53 pm

Kurenai wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:51 pm
But... we're going off topic here. Better to just focus on the Breeders Cup and have those discussions in the other thread.
Sadly at this point I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I still think our table is more fun. ;)

iItellectualization is a defense mechanism.
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