Arrogate

Post Reply
Catalina
Posts: 3588
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: South Texas

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:07 am

Pointless, I would think. It wasn't as evenly matched as the Beholder/Songbird contest.
User avatar
Insane Crazy
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:48 am

ThreeMustangs wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:I suppose it's worth noting that two of Baffert's previous successful UBS colts, Zensational and The Factor, retired (as far as we know) sound. He apparently knows how to pick 'em. =P
The Factor is by War Front...whose offspring are also not notable for their longevity.
Wow. How brain dead was I yesterday? Yikes. I can't even begin to figure out who I was thinking of. Oy...
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
User avatar
Insane Crazy
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:54 am

Catalina wrote:Pointless, I would think. It wasn't as evenly matched as the Beholder/Songbird contest.
I'm confused, so maybe I'm misreading this. Are you actually suggesting that having two of the top horses currently racing face off a second time is somehow not something we would want to see?

Also, I don't know that the final result -- in which Chrome pulled away from Arrogate but the latter had one burst back in the tank and won in the final strides of the wire, and each performed 11+ lengths better than the rest of the field -- suggests to me that they're not evenly matched. They certainly weren't off by the flare of a nostril like in the Distaff, but I hesitate to think this potential rivalry is put to bed in one race ;)
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
User avatar
bare it all
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:21 pm

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:55 am

Arrogate reminds me of the "class of 97" type of horse... Skip Away, Formal Gold, Wills Way, Gentlemen, Siphon. Those freakish types that run a high beyer every race. Just hope we have another one emerge next year.
User avatar
Starine
Posts: 4453
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:38 am

User avatar
Man o Taz
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:03 am

Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:44 am

Starine wrote:A mystery horse no more
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-ra ... -more.aspx
Hey, I was going to post that... ;)

Salute The Mastery Of Baffert As Relentless Arrogate Achieves The Seemingly Impossible
https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/arti ... mpossible/
And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath over it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse.
-Bedouin Legend


Give to Old Friends, or your favorite local horse rescue.
Kay16
Posts: 1848
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:17 am

Insane Crazy wrote:
Catalina wrote:Pointless, I would think. It wasn't as evenly matched as the Beholder/Songbird contest.
I'm confused, so maybe I'm misreading this. Are you actually suggesting that having two of the top horses currently racing face off a second time is somehow not something we would want to see?

Also, I don't know that the final result -- in which Chrome pulled away from Arrogate but the latter had one burst back in the tank and won in the final strides of the wire, and each performed 11+ lengths better than the rest of the field -- suggests to me that they're not evenly matched. They certainly weren't off by the flare of a nostril like in the Distaff, but I hesitate to think this potential rivalry is put to bed in one race ;)

I think what she meant was Songbird and Beholder was more of a dogfight to the wire. Arrogate had some work to do sitting behind the easy pace Chrome was allowed to set, and once Arrogate got going he passed Chrome quite easily and appeared to have much more in the tank.

The potential rivalry won't really be. I'm pretty sure Chromes last race will be the Pegasus? One more match up is better than none though.
User avatar
Insane Crazy
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:01 am

Kay16 wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:
Catalina wrote:Pointless, I would think. It wasn't as evenly matched as the Beholder/Songbird contest.
I'm confused, so maybe I'm misreading this. Are you actually suggesting that having two of the top horses currently racing face off a second time is somehow not something we would want to see?

Also, I don't know that the final result -- in which Chrome pulled away from Arrogate but the latter had one burst back in the tank and won in the final strides of the wire, and each performed 11+ lengths better than the rest of the field -- suggests to me that they're not evenly matched. They certainly weren't off by the flare of a nostril like in the Distaff, but I hesitate to think this potential rivalry is put to bed in one race ;)

I think what she meant was Songbird and Beholder was more of a dogfight to the wire. Arrogate had some work to do sitting behind the easy pace Chrome was allowed to set, and once Arrogate got going he passed Chrome quite easily and appeared to have much more in the tank.

The potential rivalry won't really be. I'm pretty sure Chromes last race will be the Pegasus? One more match up is better than none though.
I just wasn't sure if the post was in response to the Pegasus match up or not. Calling any rematch between two top horses "pointless" when we as a fanbase spend a lot of time and energy bemoaning how often horses avoid one another seemed...puzzling. Even if it wasn't almost a dead heat, they still put on quite a show.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
Spahny
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:02 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:55 am

There is no reason for the Chrome camp to run away from Arrogate. I'm sure they would love a rematch.

It is however rather pointless for any of the other remaining handicap horses to show up the the Stronach Experiment. Other than the reasonable chance at 3rd place purse money. Which is still rewarded even if you do finish 15 lengths back.
Catalina
Posts: 3588
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: South Texas

Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:25 am

Insane Crazy wrote:
Catalina wrote:Pointless, I would think. It wasn't as evenly matched as the Beholder/Songbird contest.
I'm confused, so maybe I'm misreading this. Are you actually suggesting that having two of the top horses currently racing face off a second time is somehow not something we would want to see?

Also, I don't know that the final result -- in which Chrome pulled away from Arrogate but the latter had one burst back in the tank and won in the final strides of the wire, and each performed 11+ lengths better than the rest of the field -- suggests to me that they're not evenly matched. They certainly weren't off by the flare of a nostril like in the Distaff, but I hesitate to think this potential rivalry is put to bed in one race ;)
Chrome had only enough in the tank for one last try, not for a continued stretch run duel, and so unless Arrogate had a bad trip in the rematch, that would IMO replay the same way in a rerun.
katmandu
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:16 am

Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:27 am

Kay16 wrote:I think what she meant was Songbird and Beholder was more of a dogfight to the wire. Arrogate had some work to do sitting behind the easy pace Chrome was allowed to set, and once Arrogate got going he passed Chrome quite easily
The first sentence may be true, but the analogy to the classic is off.
Tessablue
Posts: 3792
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:28 am

I think Arrogate is clearly a notch above Chrome in terms of talent (which isn't an insult towards Chrome- Arrogate is just about as talented as a horse can be), but that doesn't mean Chrome can't beat him. I'd love to see a rematch.
User avatar
Insane Crazy
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:40 pm

Catalina wrote:Chrome had only enough in the tank for one last try, not for a continued stretch run duel, and so unless Arrogate had a bad trip in the rematch, that would IMO replay the same way in a rerun.
Okay, but...is that still really "pointless" to see two really nice animals go against one another? That's what confused me. Affirmed beat Alydar more often than not, but seeing them go at it was thrilling. Same with Sunday and Easy Goer (whose loss in the Classic I still mourn -- even though I wasn't born yet ;) ). Plus, even then those match-ups didn't always go as expected. That's what more baffled me.

I know I'm totally overblowing this, but the idea of even remotely dismissing a rematch between the top two horses in the country makes me break out in hives. From a fan perspective it'd be amazing, from an ownership perspective, I'm sure both camps want to cement their legacy in one way or another. From a publicity perspective...hoo boy! We need those matches to sustain interest in the sport and even if it may play out exactly the same, one race does not a story make.

I also think Arrogate is more obviously brilliant than Chrome, but like you Tessa, that certainly doesn't mean Chrome can't beat him. Race dynamics are wild things. I'll be thrilled to see either win, but I absolutely want both of them there. Plus, they'll both be pretty fresh if they're both training up to it. Can't wait!
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
User avatar
CoronadosQuest
Posts: 1585
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:44 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:01 pm

There will also be a speedball by the name of Highland Reel in the Pegasus. He loves firm turf courses so what if he decides he likes the speed highway of Gulfstream.
Catalina
Posts: 3588
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: South Texas

Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:22 pm

Insane Crazy wrote:
Catalina wrote:Chrome had only enough in the tank for one last try, not for a continued stretch run duel, and so unless Arrogate had a bad trip in the rematch, that would IMO replay the same way in a rerun.
Okay, but...is that still really "pointless" to see two really nice animals go against one another? That's what confused me. Affirmed beat Alydar more often than not, but seeing them go at it was thrilling. Same with Sunday and Easy Goer (whose loss in the Classic I still mourn -- even though I wasn't born yet ;) ). Plus, even then those match-ups didn't always go as expected. That's what more baffled me.

I know I'm totally overblowing this, but the idea of even remotely dismissing a rematch between the top two horses in the country makes me break out in hives. From a fan perspective it'd be amazing, from an ownership perspective, I'm sure both camps want to cement their legacy in one way or another. From a publicity perspective...hoo boy! We need those matches to sustain interest in the sport and even if it may play out exactly the same, one race does not a story make.

I also think Arrogate is more obviously brilliant than Chrome, but like you Tessa, that certainly doesn't mean Chrome can't beat him. Race dynamics are wild things. I'll be thrilled to see either win, but I absolutely want both of them there. Plus, they'll both be pretty fresh if they're both training up to it. Can't wait!
If the connections think Chrome has a real chance, they will seek a rematch. If they think the result will be the same, then I rather doubt it.
User avatar
Big Ten
Posts: 785
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:35 am

Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:09 pm

Nice article again written by Steve Haskin for King Chrome, Queen Beholder, Prince Arrogate, and Princess Songbird.

NTRA nailed it. They are the four best horses in the country.

1. California Chrome
2. Arrogate
3. Beholder
4. Songbird

If you put Beholder and Songbird in the Classic, they would've finished 3rd and 4th about six lengths behind the Top 2.

I understand Chromies looking for someone to blame like Victor. Had he rode it any better, Arrogate could've still won. Chrome is a 2-minute flat horse. His Beyer range is 108-113. Brilliance is not something he has ever shown us. He is more in line with Curlin's talent or Sunday Silence or many other horses during the last 100 years since Man o' War. Not Ghostzapper or Dr. Fager. He runs a career best 119 which could win nearly every BC Classic ever run including the BCC that Cigar, Skip Away, and Zenyatta lost in. Chrome nearly matches American Pharoah's 120 figure last year and he still lost.

Running 122 and 120 is simply unheard of for a horse with only six lifetime starts. Arrogate was expected to bounce and he still ran :24 closing quarters. I am not trying to throw shade at previous great horses but when Easy Goer and Holy Bull were destroying their elders as 3YOs, none of them were on par with California Chrome who could be the 2nd greatest Cal-bred ever only behind Swaps with Art Sherman being the bridge connecting 60 years. California Chrome is HoF talent but we did see hit his maximum ceiling already which is on par with the majority of the past great horses during the past century...

Arrogate has Secretariat-like brilliance. Truly exceptional reserved to much fewer horses. He won't be HotY because two wins doesn't make it a YEAR and he was in a sustained drive to only beat Chrome by a half-length. But he could be the most talented horse since either The Bid or Sec who might not be even close at reaching his ceiling yet. Chrome has Top 30-50 greatness and talent. American Pharoah had Top 30 talent. Arrogate could be Top 10 talent. I learned to appreciate Skip Away and was a big fan of Ghostzapper. Arrogate runs with his head low for maximum stride and could be faster than either two considering Skip and GZ weren't earning 120+ until 4.

Look at some my signature. Ten of my favorites to watch and Arrogate is arguably faster to every horse except one - Secretariat. His potential ceiling is the sky.
Rock Hard Ten. Free House. Soul Of The Matter. Lit de Justice. Zenyatta. Justify. Cigar. Ghostzapper. Lava Man. Silver Charm.
User avatar
Insane Crazy
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:59 pm

Catalina wrote:If the connections think Chrome has a real chance, they will seek a rematch. If they think the result will be the same, then I rather doubt it.
Art already said he's very likely going to the Pegasus, and they bought a spot outright when they opened, didn't they? Not sure that there's much of a question on him. If he weren't going, he'd already be on a van to Taylor Made. There's plenty of money at stake even if they don't win, and after a 119 Beyer, it's hard to reason that Chrome doesn't have a real chance to grab a piece of it. Yeah?

I feel like Arrogate is the bigger question mark, just 'cause we have no idea how they want to handle him long term.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
User avatar
Man o Taz
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:03 am

Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:02 pm

Spahny wrote:There is no reason for the Chrome camp to run away from Arrogate. I'm sure they would love a rematch.

It is however rather pointless for any of the other remaining handicap horses to show up the the Stronach Experiment. Other than the reasonable chance at 3rd place purse money. Which is still rewarded even if you do finish 15 lengths back.
Is $1.2 million for 3rd, $600,000 for 4th, $300,000 for 5th on down the line not sufficient reason to be in the race?

It looks like 4th and 5th place money are not that bad either...
And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath over it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse.
-Bedouin Legend


Give to Old Friends, or your favorite local horse rescue.
User avatar
Man o Taz
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:03 am

Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Insane Crazy wrote: Art already said he's very likely going to the Pegasus, and they bought a spot outright when they opened, didn't they? Not sure that there's much of a question on him. If he weren't going, he'd already be on a van to Taylor Made. There's plenty of money at stake even if they don't win, and after a 119 Beyer, it's hard to reason that Chrome doesn't have a real chance to grab a piece of it. Yeah?

I feel like Arrogate is the bigger question mark, just 'cause we have no idea how they want to handle him long term.
Well, certainly Arrogate is the bigger question mark, but from Baffert's comments in this DRF article and after the race, it seems like the Pegasus is on the schedule so long as he remains healthy.

"Baffert said the Pegasus, a $12 million race, is being considered for Arrogate. Juddmonte Farms, which owns Arrogate, does not have one of the 12 slots in the race, so it would have to lease one, though it’s likely more than one would be offered."
http://www.drf.com/news/arrogate-califo ... s-possible

At a minimum, Stronach would provide one and maybe give them a deal on it...
And Allah took a handful of southerly wind, blew His breath over it, and created the horse.... Thou shall fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse.
-Bedouin Legend


Give to Old Friends, or your favorite local horse rescue.
katmandu
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:16 am

Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:31 pm

Oh, I'm sure he'll sell them one. . . .

One and one-eighth at Gulfstream with a shorter homestretch? That could be interesting.

As always, Hoppy shows up.
Post Reply