Who Was the Last All-Time Great Horse?

luvsgeldings
Posts: 985
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:18 pm
Location: SoCal

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:18 am

Zenyatta - she was the most recent great horse in my opinion - and if her jock had given her a smart ride in her last race, she would have retired unbeaten - I have no idea what smith was thinking in her last race.... but having her that far back was purely idiotic - the fact that blame had a perfect trip and zenyatta had to come from soooo far back and weave thru traffic AND still came within a nose of winning, is just amazing - and a testament to her greatness - no matter who she faced, that mare ALWAYS came running at the end - and she did it for more than one season - for me, a great horse, is a horse who does it every time.... year after year - over a test of time - zenyatta in her whole career NEVER ran a bad race.
User avatar
larrythek
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: Los Angeles / San Francisco

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:37 am

ALL TIME AMERICAN BASED HORSES

1)SECRETARIAT
2)MAN O' WAR
3)FOREGO
4)DR. FAGER
5)CITATION
6)KELSO
7)WAR ADMIRAL


70S
1)SECRETARIAT
2)FOREGO
3)AFFIRMED
4)SEATTLE SLEW
5)RUFFIAN
6)RIVA RIDGE
7)ALYDAR
8)ARTS AND LETTERS

80S
1)JOHN HENRY
2)SUNDAY SILENCE
3)SPECTACULAR BID
4)PESONAL ENSIGN
5)ALYSHEBA
6)EASY GOER

90s
1)CIGAR
2)SKIP AWAY
3)TIZNOW
4)SILVER CHARM
5)HOLY BULL

2000
1)GHOSTZAPPER
2)CURLIN
3)INVASOR
4)POINT GIVEN
5)ZENYATTA
6)SMARTY JONES

2010s
1)WISE DAN
2)SHARED BELIEF
3)MAIN SEQUENCE
4)
5)


TOP 6 RACING FEATS (SINGLE RACE OR SERIES OF RACES)

1)SECRETARIATS, BELMONT STAKES (TRIPLE CROWN)

2)DR. FAGERS WORLD RECORD MILE AT ARLINGTON PARK

3)FOREGOS 1976 MARLBORO CUP (3 BAD LEGS AND A PIANO ON HIS BACK)
IN THE RACE OF 11 HE STARTED 2ND AND WAS SHUFFLED BACK TO 8TH...WAS 10 WIDE THAN 8 WIDE THAN GOES AFTER HONEST PLEASURE WHO IS CARRYING 119LBS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJjiWXCM3s



4)FOREGOS 4 CONSECUTIVE WOODWARDS (3 BAD LEGS AND A PIANO ON HIS BACK)

5)PERSONAL ENSIGN DEFEATS (GENUINE RISK, THANKS BLIND LUCKY FOR CORRECTION) IN BREEDERS CUP DISTAFF TO RETIRE UNDEFETED 13 /13

6)RUFFIAN WINS 10 OF 11 RACES.. 8 OF THEM (80%) WERE STAKES OR TRACK RECORDS
Last edited by larrythek on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:36 am, edited 5 times in total.
Ack Ack
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:39 am

Black Caviar
User avatar
Northport
Posts: 2366
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:13 pm
Location: probably near the food

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:39 am

Probably Frankel, Sea the Stars, and Ghostzapper (from most to least recent)
weeeeeeeee
User avatar
Big Ten
Posts: 785
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:35 am

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:32 am

In most recent order -
Zenyatta
Skip Away
Cigar

^^^ All three won like 10+ G1's. Cigar and Zenyatta brought joy to the sport and had charisma. Skip Away campaigned like an old school "gelding" with so many starts and losses even if he wasn't. Just so strong and durable who lasted four seasons with three consecutive seasons as champions. But I believe all three are Top 40 at best. I don't believe Cigar is the #18 greatest racehorse like what BH ranked him. He is not better than Bold Ruler or Swaps. Zenyatta might be the greatest American racemare or no worse than 2nd or 3rd. Her biggest knock was obviously she ran on a surface that she liked but others didn't. And her conservative campaign. But name any late closing horse who consistently won almost every time and not vs statebreds like Peppers Pride. Zenyatta is on par with like Easy Goer and Ruffian in the range of the 30's.

Wise Dan
Rachel Alexandra
Curlin
Ghostapper
Azeri
Tiznow
Silver Charm

GZ might have been the most talented of them all but we are talking greatness here. He won a single G1 going two-turns and four total. I love GZ as I was already a fan watching his 2003 King Bishop and Vosburgh. Most people here had no clue who he was before that 128 Beyer he got in the Iselin. I remember ordering his Horse Hat right away when it was avail and nearly lost it on the Jurassic Park The Ride at Universal's Studios Hollywood. GZ was a talented horse who belongs in the HoF but not a Top 50 greatest horse.

Curlin might be a 2x HotY but his career hasn't aged well for me. Maybe it was the steroids or I despise his trainer and thought his owner was arrogant. Maybe because he lost to Rags in Belmont and didnt hit the board in his final start. The only race I enjoy watching is his 2007 BCC. But for some reason I had bad luck with him with betting. Curlin kills me in the Preakness by a nose. I bet him on 2008 BCC and nada. Not even second. I despised Street Sense more though. I liked Hard Spun more.

Mike Smith might be the only one who might answer it for you. He might have the greatest collection of mounts since Eddie Arcaro. Look at the list - Zenyatta, Holy Bull, Azeri, Lure, Skip Away (once), Cigar (the race that started the streak), and currently the best gelding in possibly 30-40 years with Shared Belief. Even Jerry Bailey didnt ride that many talented horses except for Cigar and Skip Away during his last season.

But if you want TOP 20 greatest, you would have to go far back to Spectacular Bid. He might even be GOAT to some. For me, I LOVE SEATTLE SLEW! I might like Slew more than Sec to tell you the truth and I worshipped Secretariat since I started to follow the sport back in 1996. I watch the 1973 Wood Memorial, Whitney, and Woodward and 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup. They both lost in those races, but I saw Slew fighting on until the bitter end. His only buttkicking was from JO Tobin in the Swaps. His owners were some of the biggest idiots and greediest in history. Sec might be more talented and far more attractive and accomplished but Slew was the better fighter and more complete horse on and off the track. Sec was probably the kinder horse if I met them both in person. Affirmed was another sweetheart just like Cigar was and Zenyatta is now.

I have nearly 300 horse racing videos saved on my phone. My favorite horses to watch -

Buckpasser (lazy like me but handsome;)
Forego
Seattle Slew
Affirmed vs Alydar (2yo/3yo all meetings compilation)
Easy Goer (his NY races)
Holy Bull
Cigar (RIP, you helped ignite my love for the sport)
Ghostzapper
Rock Hard Ten (my all-time fav racehorse)
Zenyatta (win montage)

California Chrome and Shared Belief could join the list.

Shock. Other than Sec's TC races and Bid's SA races and loss to Affirmed, I don't really rewatch their races. I didnt even download Secretariat's SportsCentury episode, but I have it for Citation, Whirlaway, and Seattle Slew. I do replay some races where I might have won money from. Lava Man, Brother Derek, Sidney's Candy, Funny Cide, etc. I own three bobbleheads (Slew, Bid, and Zen). My fav is still Slew's with the Taylors' autographs on it. Not into Kelso or John Henry. But I like Forego. His size and closing kick reminds me of Zenyatta. I just have a thing for large horses as seen from my sn, sig, and avatar.
Rock Hard Ten. Free House. Soul Of The Matter. Lit de Justice. Zenyatta. Justify. Cigar. Ghostzapper. Lava Man. Silver Charm.
stark
Posts: 5437
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:11 am

Y'all are over-thinkin this thread title, it was just this past Saturday and you're seeing it happen LIVE.

Stay tuned for more G1 victories and a BC Classic to close out the year!
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
BlindLucky
Posts: 3314
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:22 am
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:22 am

larrythek wrote:5)PERSONAL ENSIGN DEFEATS GENUINE RISK IN BREEDERS CUP TO RETIRE UNDEFETED 13 /13
Winning Colors :D
Photos from my racing travels: ThoroughbredJourney.com
Somnambulist

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:33 am

I don't know why greatness needs to be measured in the number of wins. Wins are almost meaningless when in America you can cherry pick spots.

I would rather watch a Ghostzapper run 11 times than watch Zenyatta's hum drum schedule any day of the week.
Admin
Posts: 1828
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:13 pm

Somnambulist wrote:I don't know why greatness needs to be measured in the number of wins. Wins are almost meaningless when in America you can cherry pick spots.

I would rather watch a Ghostzapper run 11 times than watch Zenyatta's hum drum schedule any day of the week.
Cherry pick is what happened with GZ. Yet you want to reward him and criticize Zenyatta.
"This is how we roll in the Shire." -- Leonard
Somnambulist

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:34 pm

Admin wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:I don't know why greatness needs to be measured in the number of wins. Wins are almost meaningless when in America you can cherry pick spots.

I would rather watch a Ghostzapper run 11 times than watch Zenyatta's hum drum schedule any day of the week.
Cherry pick is what happened with GZ. Yet you want to reward him and criticize Zenyatta.
Am I giving Ghostzapper 3 carrots and giving Zenyatta none? So I'm not sure how I'm rewarding anyone.

I would rather watch sheer brilliance than not. Me, personally. That is that what this thread was about. I imagine both of us will still be sleeping tonight regardless.
Rick1323
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:00 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:17 pm

Brilliance aside, I prefer horses like Cigar and Slew who took on all comers where ever they may be. They traveled to the biggest races and most times beat whoever showed up. I have no quibble with those who prefer Zapper as he certainly was brilliant, but his brilliance was tempered by a very short schedule. If anyone deserves credit it is his Trainer who got the most out of him as possible.

Only horse racing has no real rules when it comes to this kind of thing...... so fans should feel free to like who they like without guilt.......
Everyone come home sound.....
Lord Helpus
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:03 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:21 pm

Who set the most track records?

Who beat the most GI winners

I don't know the answers; I am just throwing out quantifiable criteria, so that horses from different decades can be measured against each other.
User avatar
Curtis
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 am
Location: Monroe, WA
Contact:

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:29 pm

Lord Helpus wrote:Who set the most track records?

Who beat the most GI winners

I don't know the answers; I am just throwing out quantifiable criteria, so that horses from different decades can be measured against each other.
I think setting up such a criteria is very difficult because too many variables have changed. Horses are just campaigned so differently that to consider any contemporary horse great, a new set of standards has to be created--if one is into box checking as Dustin put it. For thirty some odd years beginning in 1974, those that frequented Saratoga, probably noticed that the 9f track record on dirt was held by Tri Jet. Other than winning that Whitney, his main claim to fame was being the sire of Coplean. Tri Jet was a neat horse and Fred Hooper and his various trainers had lot of fun with him. If specializing in turf miles fed the bulldog, as they say, that would have hit Tri Jet right between the eyes. As it was though, a horse couldn't be that limited, unless absolutely necessary, and so Tri Jet danced a lot of dances being able to run competitively with just about anything in the country from 7-9f, as long as it was fast or firm. He even won the Hawthorne Gold Cup at 10f. If Tri Jet had been plying his trade over the last few years, he would have been able to specialize and he pretty much would have been Wise Dan. Now this is not meant to make Tri Jet more than he was or Wise Dan less than he is. It is just an illustration as to how differently horses are campaigned.
Last edited by Curtis on Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BigCountry
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:45 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:30 pm

Lord Helpus wrote:Who set the most track records?
Left Bank?
Tessablue
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:41 pm

Dunno about track records but Swaps set or equaled six world records, so I'd say he's right up there.
BigCountry
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:45 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:48 pm

Tessablue wrote:Dunno about track records but Swaps set or equaled six world records, so I'd say he's right up there.
Just to clarify my suggestion, I was operating under the assumption, given the tone of the conversation, that we were talking within the last 20 years or so :-)
Tessablue
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:08 pm

BigCountry wrote:
Tessablue wrote:Dunno about track records but Swaps set or equaled six world records, so I'd say he's right up there.
Just to clarify my suggestion, I was operating under the assumption, given the tone of the conversation, that we were talking within the last 20 years or so :-)
Ha, yeah, I have no idea where we've ended up either. But hey, can't really go wrong when we're discussing and appreciating the history of the sport!

I really need to look up some videos of Left Bank- I was just barely too young to appreciate him, so I mostly knew him as the horse who held the 7f track record at Belmont for a while (Commentator came very very close to breaking it and I was so upset that he barely missed it, would have brought his track record total to three). It's clear that he was just brilliant on his best days.
Admin
Posts: 1828
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:28 pm

Tessablue wrote:
BigCountry wrote:
Tessablue wrote:Dunno about track records but Swaps set or equaled six world records, so I'd say he's right up there.
Just to clarify my suggestion, I was operating under the assumption, given the tone of the conversation, that we were talking within the last 20 years or so :-)
Ha, yeah, I have no idea where we've ended up either. But hey, can't really go wrong when we're discussing and appreciating the history of the sport!

I really need to look up some videos of Left Bank- I was just barely too young to appreciate him, so I mostly knew him as the horse who held the 7f track record at Belmont for a while (Commentator came very very close to breaking it and I was so upset that he barely missed it, would have brought his track record total to three). It's clear that he was just brilliant on his best days.
I loved Left Bank, but unfortunately part of his story is that he was one of 3 horses trained by Pletcher who ran huge at Saratoga that year before coming down with serious intestinal ailments that claimed all of their lives. Left Bank survived the longest.

Left Bank's colic was the first in a grim series of events for Pletcher. Two days after Left Bank departed for his initial surgery, Padua Stables' graded stakes winner Freedom's Daughter succumbed to a case of the intestinal disease colitis X. Nine days after that, the Grade 3-placed colt Warners died after developing laminitis; Pletcher had shipped Warners to a Saratoga clinic when the colt showed signs of intestinal problems similar to those exhibited by Freedom's Daughter.
"This is how we roll in the Shire." -- Leonard
thinair
Posts: 1771
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:46 pm

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:34 am

Freedom's Daughter ( Adirondack Stakes ) and Warners were the other two. Along with Left Bank, all of them ran remarkably well in their final starts before dying. Left Bank's performance in the Whitney, frankly, defied belief. He wasn't even the controlling speed, as the Chief ran a horse that set a blazing pace, while Left Bank chased him, took over, and easily dusted Street Cry, who was coming off of a huge score in the Foster, and Lido Palace, who to be fair was not as good that year as the prior one.
Kay16
Posts: 1848
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 pm

Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:01 pm

Ghostzapper simply didn't do enough to be an all time great. I think when measuring "greatness" you have to think of the horses almost everyone can agree on as an "all time great" and compare. Calling a horse like Ghostzapper an all time great to me would be, for lack of a better word, embarrassing to horses like Secretariat, Kelso, Dr. Fager, Affirmed, The Bid, Citation, etc. Good thing horses have no idea who they are compared to. ;)

Ghostzapper could arguably be the most talented horse we've seen since Bid, but horses like Fager, Bid, Secretariat, Affirmed, Citation had that talent and brilliance on top of durability and more, which Ghostzapper lacked.


My honest opinion, "all time great" is a rare thing and the number who have accomplished it is smaller than I'm sure many think. That's just my opinion. I also have incredibly high standards. :ugeek:
Post Reply