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BaroqueAgain1
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Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:45 pm

And not just the TB industry. Premarin foals, aged mares, lame QHs, ponies outgrown by young owners...you name it. Thousands of discarded horses of every breed and age end up at slaughter.
This is a problem that involves every horse/pony owner in the country.
What do we do with all the unwanted horses? How can we find a humane solution for all of them, when we can't even get the TB racing industry to get its act together? :(
barbaro111
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Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:52 pm

Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.

amen to what you said.
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Katewerk
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Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:14 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.
amen to what you said.
Along with feral horses. With the numbers involved, demanding the end of slaughter is just handing the keys to those who want the industry destroyed for its own sake -- just as they do when they blame the purebred dog fancy for "shelter dogs", while importing tens of thousands from overseas for the retail "rescue" market.

Ending slaughter won't make them stop.

No one talks about improving slaughter methods to make it more humane, and they should. Better it be done in North America with humane controls in place, than ship them to some ****hole country. I'm not talking about TB specifically here, or excusing those who grind them up without regard for the animal, but of the wider problem of what to do with horses who have no purpose, and no home.
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Falinadin
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Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:32 pm

This is a thought I've had.

With basically every other animal species in the U.S., there is an overpopulation "outlet". Dogs and cats that nobody wants end up at shelters, most of which eventually euthanize unwanted animals and are government sponsored. Tens of thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized every year. Rabbits, guinea pigs, etc are often accepted at these shelters are well.
Livestock (cattle, sheep, goats, pigs) have auctions and slaughter. Some shelters are capable of taking a few, but the majority of unwanted livestock goes to auction and slaughter.

What about horses? In the past horses were like livestock and went to auction and slaughter. Then that became unfavorable. But we don't have thousands of government funded shelters capable of taking unwanted horses and euthanizing ones that don't get adopted. There is no place for unwanted horses to go now that slaughter has been outlawed.

I find it frustrating when people blame the horse racing industry, AQHA, etc for not doing more... when nobody else has ever found a solution for any animal. Every animal production system we have (dog showing, dairy industry, wool, etc) is able to produce animals because of their "outlets". Purebred dogs get sold to families, taking the place of a shelter dog that ends up euthanized. What would these industries look like if sheep and cattle couldn't go to slaughter, and dogs couldnt be euthanized by the thousands? My guess is they'd start to fall apart.

I absolutely applaud the efforts of people advocating for TB aftercare, I used to own an OTTB myself. I will be thrilled if a day comes when there are no homeless or slaughtered horses. I just... don't know how anyone expects the TB industry to find a solution for something that nobody else has managed to fix.
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Katewerk
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:38 am

Falinadin wrote:Purebred dogs get sold to families, taking the place of a shelter dog that ends up euthanized. What would these industries look like if sheep and cattle couldn't go to slaughter, and dogs couldnt be euthanized by the thousands? My guess is they'd start to fall apart.
That's not how it works, though. Animal ownership isn't a zero sum game. The sentence makes as much sense as "Thoroughbreds get sold to racing ownerships, taking the place of a mustang that ends up euthanized."

The family that wants a 10lb non-shedding Bichon Frise isn't going to turn to a 35 lb pit bull from a shelter. It doesn't suit their needs or their lifestyle. It sheds, it's too big, and the genetics harbour lower thresholds for dog aggression and reduced bite inhibition.

They'll go dogless, and the pit bull still gets euthanized.

The breeder perpetuating the heritage or working breed isn't responsible for thousands of abandoned pit bulls. Those will be bred with or without us. But the animal rights lobby will use them as leverage, not because they want to save shelter animals or stop slaughter, but because they want the end of companion/working animals altogether.
BaroqueAgain1
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 am

As long as there is a population of horses for whom there ARE no homes, whether due to age, illness or lameness, there needs to be a humane way to end their lives. Some method that is painless, doesn't create fear and panic in the horses, and that doesn't shove them into crowded trailers for a long, difficult trip to a slaughterhouse.
I'm not opposed to horses being harvested for meat, since it makes a Circle-Of-Life sort of sense to me, if it could be done humanely. As I understand it, if a horse is euthanized using drugs, that makes their meat unsuitable for consumption.
If the US could set up a network of slaughterhouses that are modern and humane, with a painless (or as painless as possible), mechanical way to instantly kill a horse, that meat could supply anything from zoos to food banks.
But that would be expensive and I'm pretty sure that whoever is presently in the business of slaughter wants to keep it as cheap as possible, no matter how awful it is for the horses. :evil:
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Falinadin
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:53 am

Katewerk wrote: That's not how it works, though. Animal ownership isn't a zero sum game. The sentence makes as much sense as "Thoroughbreds get sold to racing ownerships, taking the place of a mustang that ends up euthanized."
That's true, at least at that stage in a horse's life. After their racing career is over though, and they are going to be trail/pleasure/etc horses, then yes adopting an OTTB may take the place of a mustang. (Funny enough I was in the market for a mustang when the OTTB I bought came along!)

I think your points are completely valid, and they show that there are even fewer homes for animals then there would seem to be. I'm not trying to bash dog or livestock breeding, as I breed dairy goats myself. My goats that aren't show quality sometimes go to be pets. And I fully acknowledge that there are lots of goats that go to slaughter who maybe could have had a pet home. But thats how the industry stays sustainable. If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).

Anyway, the tl;dr is that I feel bad that the TB industry is getting so much focus when they've been put between a rock and a hard place. I don't know the answer.
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Treve
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:08 am

Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.
A balanced perspective would show that while the industry has dragged its feet about this issue, not all people who are involved in racing are callous, heartless money-mongers who view horses as machines to be discarded when no longer of use. A balanced perspective would look at what is being done, from the people on the frontline going to auctions and trying to outbid killbuyers, to people like Foxhill creating a whole new organisation whose goal is not only to act as a watch dog but provide advice and organisation to those individuals on the frontlines to help horses. And even if they didn't go so far as to examine those individuals and stories, a balanced perspective would offer solutions and suggestions as to what can be done, even whilst demanding accountability.
That is what I am talking about. I am certainly not saying there is an upside or balanced perspective to slaughter - but there are multiple narratives they can choose, and the one which would be a disservice to the horses, would be the narrative stating that racing should be banned altogether and that that would be a solution. (I can tell you it wouldn't.)
A filly named Ruffian...

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Sparrow Castle
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:52 pm

ntwo.org
2 hrs ·
We will be welcoming our first three "unofficial" horses to our program this weekend! Our fabulous Louisiana rep Emily Guiza was contacted about three racehorses who need homes. We decided that even if we haven't officially started operations, we can certainly take in these three. They are to ship out on Sunday, and our wonderful Carrie Brogden will be accepting them at her Machmer Hall farm. We will anxiously await the arrival of Fuhr Father (2014 g by Forefathers out of Aleja Grand, by Langfuhr) from trainer Chad Maturin and owner Jerald Maturin, and Dynamic Decision (2011 g by Dixie Union out of Risk, by Wavering Monarch) and Czarmo (2013 g by Uncle Mo out of American Czarina, by Quiet American) from owner Steve Seeber. The following are photos we have of two, we'll post the third if we get it before they arrive. We'll post new pictures and details likely on Monday. Welcome, boys!

Czarmo
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Fuhr Father
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Ballerina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:35 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.

amen to what you said.
another amen here.
Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:06 pm

Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.
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WarBiscuit
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:54 pm

Somnambulist wrote:Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.
I am in complete agreement with your thoughts and ideas here.

WarBiscuit
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Sparrow Castle
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:24 pm

A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen parents get horses for their youngsters and, when those kids grow up and lose interest, it's off to the auction for the horses. These aren't bad people otherwise, some started out by buying the horse from auction and don't see that as a problem.

I have less tolerance for the parents who replace the original horse with a more expensive purchased one because they have (often unrealistic) dreams that their children will succeed at high levels of whichever horse sport they've chosen if they had a better horse, and their kids deserve the best. The auction horse just isn't good enough anymore so back to auction he/she goes, older and with maybe fewer chances to get a forever home. And that new shiny horse may end up there as well.

When we consider homes for our thoroughbreds off the track who can't be placed with track people or former owners, we look for youngish adults, past the horse-crazy-until-puberty stage and out of college, who have the means to support a horse, and want one or two horses for hobby (riding, show, or otherwise). There's still a risk a change in circumstance puts the horse in a bad situation though, and we make efforts to keep in touch with them. We've had success with this type of home, but there aren't enough of them for all horses who need homes. Perhaps tax deductions would open up more of the those.

It's easy to be anti-slaughter when the whole process of it is so cruel and inhumane. I'm actually not sure how I'd feel about it if it were done with the utmost attention paid to the comfort of the horse. I just may be sad but understanding about it. Like dogs and cats and other animals, there are just too many horses born every year to place all of them successfully in forever homes.

I don't know what to do about the over-breeding problem, which I agree is a problem. We've had some nicely bred mares but never saw that as an option for them simply because we didn't want the responsibility of following resultant foals from birth to grave (we had one who was claimed by Machmer Hall to be a broodmare and felt okay about that because they have more money than we do and are deeply involved in aftercare). I agree that only national governance could tackle that problem.

We support the efforts of Fox Hill here and other industry-driven initiatives, contribute to retirement organizations, and sometimes participate in efforts to save one horse at a time. I have no solutions beyond that.
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Ballerina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:05 pm

Slaughter will never be humane. It costs too much money. The slaughter industry was/is owned by foreign companies. The goal is to make money and be damned to caring about the suffering of an animal. Take into consideration the number of horses stolen only to be sold by the thief to slaughter. Take into consideration the meat tainted with drugs and chemicals that make it unfit for consumption. Take into consideration the land that is polluted with horse remain waster from a slaughter house. It is a gruesome industry and should never return to the USA. Congress has been twiddling its thumbs for well over a decade on this issue. Pass the SAFE Act. Do away with slaughter in the USA and make it illegal to transport horses outside of USA borders for the purpose of slaughter. In time, with no $$$ outlet to go to, those in the business of indiscriminate breeding or acquiring horses that don't live up to expectation will desist in owning horses they can't take care of properly. It's just one of the many national disgraces when it comes to how animals are treated.
Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:13 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.

amen to what you said.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That.
Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:48 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.
Agreed. It's no different than a child, a husband, or a dog, or anything else. I don't think most people think of that when you ask for a horse you get a horse. Not just the fun parts but all of it - good and bad. At my current life stage if I was able to declare married and claim the horse as a dependent that'd be stellar. I'd drag my man to town hall right now and get hitched if that was the case.

I also think what FHF is doing is great. If anything like this opens up in NY I'd really love to get involved in it.
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Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:51 pm

A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with a better solution.
Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Catalina wrote:A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with better solution.
It's really just a pipe dream that I'm running with since people are entertaining me.

I'm so defeatist. I don't see how anything other than uniform rule can save this sport.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Katewerk
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:07 pm

Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).
Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.
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Treve
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).
Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.
Not just in your breed, as far as dogs go the pet overpopulation is a myth. The amount of American homes currently looking to adopt dogs exceeds by (if I recall correctly) about 6 times the amount of dogs in shelters AND the amount of dogs produced by backyard breeders, let alone dogs produced by heritage, reputable breeders. This notion is a myth pushed by the Animal Rights lobbies. Adopt don't shop is the marketing gimmick of the century. We should ask ourselves why on Earth there are American and Canadian shelters needing to import dogs from other parts of the country, and now, importing dogs from overseas to fill their shelters? It's a business! (For anyone interested in further reading about this notion here http://www.nathanwinograd.com/the-myth- ... s-edition/ )

As you've previously underlined the people who are generally seeking specific characteristics, and are the kind of people who do research, contact breed clubs and talk to heritage breeders are not the same type of people who are willing or able to get a dog from a shelter (some might look at ethical breed rescue networks, but again this depends on the individuals. A family with younger children might not want to take the gamble of adopting a dog with certain behavioural issues) - but as a matter of fact a lot of ethical dog breeders are actively involved in rescue and this crosses over to there more engaged pet owners. I've got one rescue (a real one... not one I bought from a shelter, but a dog I found skin and bones and dehydrated behind a gas station) and a well bred dog from an ethical reputable breeder. I'd venture to say this is even truer for horses - while some people might be flexible on the horse they're looking to buy in general riding homes have a pretty specific idea of what they want to do, and so they'll find a horse suitable for that task. Some horses might be interchangeable but I don't think the parents picking up a grade shetland pony for their 8 year old were ever going to buy the flighty, previously abused flighty 3yo arabian in need of rehab.

I can't say for sure how that translates to horses and livestock in terms of overproduction of horses and animals. The big problem is when you have unforeseen events like the economic crash of 2008. Thousands of expensive, well bred Andalusians and PRE ended up on dinner plates in Spain when the people who previously owned them suddenly couldn't afford them. Same story with the normally 5-6 figure Belgian and Dutch Warmbloods. So even if there theoretically was a home for every horse out there, that situation can shift in the blink of an eye.
But surely there has to be a way to create a safety net for these animals in case of freak occurrences?
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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