horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Retrospectiv » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:35 pm

Another thing to keep in mind for those conspiracy theorists...

Colour breeding among TBs has only been a fad for the last 20 years or so. Previously oddly coloured ones were culled or not registered. For a racing bred horse, there would have been less than ZERO reason to try and breed colour in via any other breed as no saddlebred or anything else was going to add anything racing genetics wise.

As far as the non- dilutes go, the W white spotting gene horses have been well researched and they know where the mutation genes occur when a new one pops up, and they know that the gene does get passed on once a new mutation line has been established.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Treve » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Retrospectiv wrote:Another thing to keep in mind for those conspiracy theorists...

Colour breeding among TBs has only been a fad for the last 20 years or so. Previously oddly coloured ones were culled or not registered. For a racing bred horse, there would have been less than ZERO reason to try and breed colour in via any other breed as no saddlebred or anything else was going to add anything racing genetics wise.


Bingo!
A filly named Ruffian...

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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Falinadin » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:26 pm

I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Treve » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Since the cream dilution isn't a spontaneous mutation that's unlikely. And the true dun mutation doesn't exist in thoroughbreds. Other dilutions like Pearl, Champagne and Silver haven't been observed either.
Around that time Saddlebreds would've been pretty valuable on their own as their popularity was increasing stateside and internationally, I don't think it would've made sense to buy a saddlebred or saddlebred x foal to resell you'd have barely broke even I'd imagine which then would've not brought you any closer to recouping the stud fee.

Additionally as Flanders pointed out, there are more than just a single ancestor noted in all TBs pedigrees, I think it very unlikely that out of all those original ancestors the gene wouldn't have survived in one line? The Byerley Turk though his tail male descendants are rare himself features more than any of the other three founding stallions in overall % of pedigree. And honestly even studying some of the historical paintings of Stud Book individuals, I see some with rather ambiguous colouring. I think it's more likely they just never bothered to narrow down on the colours. As pointed out, even Milkie was advertised as a light chestnut early on. The same way the jockey club has the colour 'grey or roan' when the two are genetically distinct and the latter doesn't exist in TBs I don't see why the opposite can't be true. "Oh it has a brownish body and some darker points, it's a bay/brown/dark brown".

Observing colour by phenotype is subjective, you see it even in humans. If you go to Romania and ask whether an ash hair colour is brown or blonde you're going to get a different answer than if you go ask a Swede. I'd be curious to know when and how the term 'buckskin' even came into use.
In French we have multiple words to describe horse colours but often they are misleading and since some are fairly ancient they've got nothing to do with genotype. Sometimes the same term can refer to actually genetically distinct colours.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Miss Woodford » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:47 am

Falinadin wrote:I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.

Exactly. It wasn't that saddlebred blood was slipped into the 2nd or 3rd dam, it's that one of the dams isn't who they claimed it was. No DNA testing, no videotape of the covering, no photographs = no way of verifying. The complete lack of racing ability in any of these Milkie and Glitter Please descendants is also interesting - there have been successful pinto TBs and white TBs on the track but not one dilute has ever won a race, or even come close.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Delamont » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:54 am

Miss Woodford wrote:
Falinadin wrote:I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.

Exactly. It wasn't that saddlebred blood was slipped into the 2nd or 3rd dam, it's that one of the dams isn't who they claimed it was. No DNA testing, no videotape of the covering, no photographs = no way of verifying. The complete lack of racing ability in any of these Milkie and Glitter Please descendants is also interesting - there have been successful pinto TBs and white TBs on the track but not one dilute has ever won a race, or even come close.


White TBs...Japan seems to have a corner on the market with Yukichan and such.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Sparrow Castle » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:00 am

This is very much unrelated to the above discussion, but I thought of it when I came across this article. And I don't see any place better to post it.

Byerley Turk Reaching The End Of The Line
By Chris McGrath
As we all know, the only bottom line most breeders really care about is found at the base of a balance sheet. And the ink they use, red or black, tends to be ascribed sooner to the top line of a pedigree than to the one running along the bottom. Commercial yearlings are branded first and foremost by their sires, even though the equal genetic contribution of the dam should make her family of critical interest.

On the one hand, then, it was edifying to see three Classics in eight days magnify names in the bottom line: Miesque (Nureyev) as grand-dam of G1 Prix du Jockey-Club winner Study Of Man (Fr) (Deep Impact {Jpn}) and great-grand-dam of G1 Irish 1,000 Guineas winner Alpha Centauri (Ire) (Mastercraftsman {Ire}); and the great Urban Sea (Miswaki) as fourth dam of Derby winner Masar (Ire) (New Approach {Ire}), besides also being dam of his grandsire.

Arguably, however, both Miesque and Urban Sea are exceptions to prove the rule. As such celebrities, in both their racing and breeding careers, they stand out luminously in a family tree: barely less of a short-cut, in terms of attention span, than crediting everything to the sire. But when Study Of Man, for instance, takes one of the best pedigrees in Europe to stud, we should be no less interested in all the other spars and buttresses that support the family around his famous grand-dam. It will be easy enough, at that stage, to be excited by the fact that Study Of Man is out of a mare by one of the great modern broodmare sires in Storm Cat. But how many people, in renewing their admiration for Miesque, are still asking themselves how much of her priceless legacy might be credited to her mother Pasodoble-who was by Prove Out (Graustark) out of a Sanctus (Fr) (Fine Top {Fr}) mare?

More: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/byerley-turk-reaching-the-end-of-the-line/
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Treve » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:42 am

The matter of genetic diversity is a serious one particularly in this breed. It's something very much on my mind as we are running into a lot of trouble for lack of genetic diversity in my breed of the canine persuasion (Doberman Pinschers... aptly nicknamed 'The Thoroughbred of the Canine race' by the French) I think that article deserves its own topic SC! Thank you for sharing.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:45 am

(Doberman Pinschers... aptly nicknamed 'The Thoroughbred of the Canine race' by the French)

I like the nickname a friend of mine gave them: Medium-Range Cruise Missiles. ;)
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby lurkey mclurker » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:10 pm

via Twitter, @buena_vista23 - '17 Incognito (JPN) (Gone West x Daneskaya [GB]), by Gold Ship (JPN)

a cute filly... hope she doesn't grey out like her papa, the half-white half-dark eyelashes are killing me <3
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