The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:06 pm

Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
WarBiscuit
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:54 pm

Somnambulist wrote:Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.
I am in complete agreement with your thoughts and ideas here.

WarBiscuit
"One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent." H.L. Mencken
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Sparrow Castle
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:24 pm

A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen parents get horses for their youngsters and, when those kids grow up and lose interest, it's off to the auction for the horses. These aren't bad people otherwise, some started out by buying the horse from auction and don't see that as a problem.

I have less tolerance for the parents who replace the original horse with a more expensive purchased one because they have (often unrealistic) dreams that their children will succeed at high levels of whichever horse sport they've chosen if they had a better horse, and their kids deserve the best. The auction horse just isn't good enough anymore so back to auction he/she goes, older and with maybe fewer chances to get a forever home. And that new shiny horse may end up there as well.

When we consider homes for our thoroughbreds off the track who can't be placed with track people or former owners, we look for youngish adults, past the horse-crazy-until-puberty stage and out of college, who have the means to support a horse, and want one or two horses for hobby (riding, show, or otherwise). There's still a risk a change in circumstance puts the horse in a bad situation though, and we make efforts to keep in touch with them. We've had success with this type of home, but there aren't enough of them for all horses who need homes. Perhaps tax deductions would open up more of the those.

It's easy to be anti-slaughter when the whole process of it is so cruel and inhumane. I'm actually not sure how I'd feel about it if it were done with the utmost attention paid to the comfort of the horse. I just may be sad but understanding about it. Like dogs and cats and other animals, there are just too many horses born every year to place all of them successfully in forever homes.

I don't know what to do about the over-breeding problem, which I agree is a problem. We've had some nicely bred mares but never saw that as an option for them simply because we didn't want the responsibility of following resultant foals from birth to grave (we had one who was claimed by Machmer Hall to be a broodmare and felt okay about that because they have more money than we do and are deeply involved in aftercare). I agree that only national governance could tackle that problem.

We support the efforts of Fox Hill here and other industry-driven initiatives, contribute to retirement organizations, and sometimes participate in efforts to save one horse at a time. I have no solutions beyond that.
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Ballerina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:05 pm

Slaughter will never be humane. It costs too much money. The slaughter industry was/is owned by foreign companies. The goal is to make money and be damned to caring about the suffering of an animal. Take into consideration the number of horses stolen only to be sold by the thief to slaughter. Take into consideration the meat tainted with drugs and chemicals that make it unfit for consumption. Take into consideration the land that is polluted with horse remain waster from a slaughter house. It is a gruesome industry and should never return to the USA. Congress has been twiddling its thumbs for well over a decade on this issue. Pass the SAFE Act. Do away with slaughter in the USA and make it illegal to transport horses outside of USA borders for the purpose of slaughter. In time, with no $$$ outlet to go to, those in the business of indiscriminate breeding or acquiring horses that don't live up to expectation will desist in owning horses they can't take care of properly. It's just one of the many national disgraces when it comes to how animals are treated.
Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:13 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.

amen to what you said.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That.
Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:48 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.
Agreed. It's no different than a child, a husband, or a dog, or anything else. I don't think most people think of that when you ask for a horse you get a horse. Not just the fun parts but all of it - good and bad. At my current life stage if I was able to declare married and claim the horse as a dependent that'd be stellar. I'd drag my man to town hall right now and get hitched if that was the case.

I also think what FHF is doing is great. If anything like this opens up in NY I'd really love to get involved in it.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:51 pm

A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with a better solution.
Somnambulist
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Catalina wrote:A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with better solution.
It's really just a pipe dream that I'm running with since people are entertaining me.

I'm so defeatist. I don't see how anything other than uniform rule can save this sport.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Katewerk
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:07 pm

Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).
Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.
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Treve
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).
Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.
Not just in your breed, as far as dogs go the pet overpopulation is a myth. The amount of American homes currently looking to adopt dogs exceeds by (if I recall correctly) about 6 times the amount of dogs in shelters AND the amount of dogs produced by backyard breeders, let alone dogs produced by heritage, reputable breeders. This notion is a myth pushed by the Animal Rights lobbies. Adopt don't shop is the marketing gimmick of the century. We should ask ourselves why on Earth there are American and Canadian shelters needing to import dogs from other parts of the country, and now, importing dogs from overseas to fill their shelters? It's a business! (For anyone interested in further reading about this notion here http://www.nathanwinograd.com/the-myth- ... s-edition/ )

As you've previously underlined the people who are generally seeking specific characteristics, and are the kind of people who do research, contact breed clubs and talk to heritage breeders are not the same type of people who are willing or able to get a dog from a shelter (some might look at ethical breed rescue networks, but again this depends on the individuals. A family with younger children might not want to take the gamble of adopting a dog with certain behavioural issues) - but as a matter of fact a lot of ethical dog breeders are actively involved in rescue and this crosses over to there more engaged pet owners. I've got one rescue (a real one... not one I bought from a shelter, but a dog I found skin and bones and dehydrated behind a gas station) and a well bred dog from an ethical reputable breeder. I'd venture to say this is even truer for horses - while some people might be flexible on the horse they're looking to buy in general riding homes have a pretty specific idea of what they want to do, and so they'll find a horse suitable for that task. Some horses might be interchangeable but I don't think the parents picking up a grade shetland pony for their 8 year old were ever going to buy the flighty, previously abused flighty 3yo arabian in need of rehab.

I can't say for sure how that translates to horses and livestock in terms of overproduction of horses and animals. The big problem is when you have unforeseen events like the economic crash of 2008. Thousands of expensive, well bred Andalusians and PRE ended up on dinner plates in Spain when the people who previously owned them suddenly couldn't afford them. Same story with the normally 5-6 figure Belgian and Dutch Warmbloods. So even if there theoretically was a home for every horse out there, that situation can shift in the blink of an eye.
But surely there has to be a way to create a safety net for these animals in case of freak occurrences?
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Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:51 pm

You can create hay banks to assist with short-term emergencies, but even that is easier said then done. With the widespread hotter, drier weather, hay is getting harder to find, and more and more expensive.

But I think that in times of major economic/political disasters (such as the Depression, wars), animals will continue to be among the first victims.
Catalina
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:04 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Catalina wrote:A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with better solution.
It's really just a pipe dream that I'm running with since people are entertaining me.

I'm so defeatist. I don't see how anything other than uniform rule can save this sport.
Oh, I agree, our just about last hope is a uniform rule, which would have to be forced on the powers that be, every figure head protecting their little kingdom to the last drop of blood.
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Sparrow Castle
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Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:36 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sparrow Castle wrote:A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.
Agreed. It's no different than a child, a husband, or a dog, or anything else. I don't think most people think of that when you ask for a horse you get a horse. Not just the fun parts but all of it - good and bad. At my current life stage if I was able to declare married and claim the horse as a dependent that'd be stellar. I'd drag my man to town hall right now and get hitched if that was the case.

I also think what FHF is doing is great. If anything like this opens up in NY I'd really love to get involved in it.
Haha, I was thinking more a "charitable" tax deduction than "dependent" tax deduction, but having a horse really is more like having a child or husband!
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu May 10, 2018 12:46 am

Catching up on this thread from Facebook.

ntwo.org shared a post.
May 2 at 5:51pm ·
This guy seems like a genuine sweetheart who would love an owner who dotes on him and he'd return in kind.
Carrie Willwerth Brogden
May 2 ·
Wow is this gelding in great condition or what!? Perfect OTTB riding prospect!!!! Dapples everywhere. Videos available of field movement . 4 yr old 15.3 , big bodied and pretty pretty in your pocket guy. Adoption is 500$ , which just helps pay the $850 shipping bill already paid from La. located In Paris, KY. PM if interested in getting him — at Machmer Hall Farm.
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ntwo.org shared a post.
May 2 at 5:48pm ·
Carrie Willwerth Brogden
May 2 ·
NTWO’s first arrivals in Ky!!! The National Thoroughbfef Welfare Organization is in business!!! These three geldings arrived in great condition from their caring former owners and trainers at the tracks in La. 2/3 will be up for adoption soon and ready to head to their new lives. The third one needs some time on an ankle and will be a buddy for Vinceremos!!!! — at Machmer Hall Farm.
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu May 10, 2018 12:52 am

If anyone is so inclined to sign...Maggi Moss started this petition to OFFICE OF LA ATTORNEY GENERAL AND DEPT OF AG IN Louisiana.

MAKE LOUISIANA OFFICIALS AND POLITICIANS ACT ON HORSE KILL PENS IN LA
Out of total frustration, and viewing horses falling thru vans and being dragged, cruel, inhumane treatment, I simply cant sit here anymore and do nothing, so why not try this? - FOR YEARS, no law enforcement, politician, or anyone in power will enforce federal laws or state animal cruelty laws "that exist" in Louisiana, that are being violated by THOMPSONS KILL LOT AND BASTROP KILL PEN.- IT IS TIME TO MAKE THEM ACT. If i can get 10,000 signatures, I will personally take it to "officials" in La

Thompsons transports with insufficient health certificates and improper, illegal and inhumane ways in violation of Federal law; They violate the Louisiana cruelty statutes, their contracts will not stand up and would be declared illegal; Bastrop practices animal cruelty under Louisiana statutes. Both do not comply with Federal or state income or sale tax laws. All of this needs to be investigated-
https://www.change.org/p/office-of-la-a ... =ex99%3Av1
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Ballerina
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Thu May 10, 2018 1:29 am

Sparrow Castle wrote:If anyone is so inclined to sign...Maggi Moss started this petition to OFFICE OF LA ATTORNEY GENERAL AND DEPT OF AG IN Louisiana.

MAKE LOUISIANA OFFICIALS AND POLITICIANS ACT ON HORSE KILL PENS IN LA
Out of total frustration, and viewing horses falling thru vans and being dragged, cruel, inhumane treatment, I simply cant sit here anymore and do nothing, so why not try this? - FOR YEARS, no law enforcement, politician, or anyone in power will enforce federal laws or state animal cruelty laws "that exist" in Louisiana, that are being violated by THOMPSONS KILL LOT AND BASTROP KILL PEN.- IT IS TIME TO MAKE THEM ACT. If i can get 10,000 signatures, I will personally take it to "officials" in La

Thompsons transports with insufficient health certificates and improper, illegal and inhumane ways in violation of Federal law; They violate the Louisiana cruelty statutes, their contracts will not stand up and would be declared illegal; Bastrop practices animal cruelty under Louisiana statutes. Both do not comply with Federal or state income or sale tax laws. All of this needs to be investigated-
https://www.change.org/p/office-of-la-a ... =ex99%3Av1
I signed and shared the petition. So many people up in arms about how other countries treat their animals while something like this is happening here. The dark underbelly of the sport need a heavy light shone on it.
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Ballerina
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Thu May 10, 2018 1:51 am

I'm not a fan or a $ supporter of HSUS. But there are times when they get things right.

https://blog.humanesociety.org/2018/05/ ... ghter.html
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Ballerina
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Fri May 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Racing's efforts to grapple with horse slaughter is not enough - at least for now

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... st-for-now
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Sparrow Castle
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:27 pm

ntwo.org
45 mins ·
We've taken in 3 more horses today while we still await our 501(c)3 and start of our program in Louisiana. Emily was contacted by a trainer in the Midatlantic area asking if we could take these 3, and Carrie is graciously housing them at her beautiful Machmer Hall.

The horses are Hunger (Tribal Rule - Excusabull, by Indian Charlie), Tymochtee Creek (Quality Road - More Than Magic, by More Than Ready), and Boca Scuttlebutt (Elusive Quality - Baghdaria, by Royal Academy).

Boca is particularly interesting pedigree-wise, being out of a multiple-graded stakes winning daughter of blue hen Oatsee (making her a half to Shackleford, Lady Joanne, and 2 other graded performers).

We'll assess them tomorrow, but we know that Hunger has a bow that will need time. All three horses came to us from owner Baccarat Racing LLC and trainer Bruno Tessore. We thank them for working to responsibly rehome their horses at the end of their racing careers.
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https://www.facebook.com/NTWO.org/
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Sparrow Castle
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Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:29 pm

Evangeline Downs, Delta Downs contribute to racehorse aftercare
The National Thoroughbred Welfare Organization, founded by prominent owner Rick Porter, announced Wednesday that Delta Downs and Evangeline Downs, the sister tracks in Louisiana operated by Boyd Gaming, have committed funds to assist with the rehoming of horses in Louisiana.

The tracks are the first in the nation to commit financial support to the NTWO, which has a mission of “intercepting retired Thoroughbred horses from being sold into the slaughter pipeline,” according to a press release. The NTWO will have a representative at tracks and training centers to work with owners and their trainers to find new homes for horses whose racing careers have ended.

“While improvements have been made in the aftercare of racing’s horses, there is still much to be done,” Victoria Keith, president of the NTWO, said in a release. “We have a lot of work in front of us, but we’re excited to get started and make a difference in the lives of horses in Louisiana. We are grateful to Delta Downs and Evangeline Downs for taking the lead in working with us to fight the indefensible practice of horse slaughter, and we encourage others to follow their lead.”

Delta Downs, in Vinton, is currently conducting a meet for Quarter Horses, and Evangeline Downs, in Opelousas, is in the midst of a meet for Thoroughbreds.

“Every horse that races at our tracks deserves to find a good, loving home after it retires,” Vince Schwartz, senior vice president of operations for Boyd Gaming, said in a release. “The NTWO’s noble mission is one we are proud to support.”
More: http://www.drf.com/news/evangeline-down ... -aftercare

https://www.facebook.com/NTWO.org/posts/395829417569636
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