The rise of Sunday Silence

Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Treve » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:51 am

It's also like comparing a big fish who started out in a smaller pond vs a big fish in an ocean. Perspective is important, US stallions are often compared in contrast to one another because we have so many. When you look at that optic vs looking at their individual stats, their results can seem less impressive than they actually are. At the time Sunday Silence turned up in the land of the rising sun, there weren't going to be that many stallions to compete with once he rapidly established himself.

I believe Sunday Silence would have always been a great stallion given how well he has done with a lot of different mares and his descendance continues to do well, but I have to question if he would have been as dominant in the USA when he'd have to have been competing a lot more fiercely for mares especially if he hadn't ended up standing in Kentucky. And yes even in Japan breeders were skeptical at first but given how he came out swinging he quickly got the who's who of mares. Japan gave Sunday Silence the opportunity to become a breed shaping sire and his descendants are now ready to conquer the world.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest. Sunday was a smash hit right from his first crop. As a Californian, I well recall the disdain the eastern racing establishment had for Sunday Silence (indeed for most horses based or bred in California until relatively recently). He deserves vastly more respect here in the country of his birth than he has ever received. Sunday Silence was a truly great horse by any measure. He was the best horse of his generation when he raced here, and continues to be a massive influence as a sire everywhere in the world except the United States.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud. At the time, Easy Goer got top quality mares, whereas Scat Daddy got more average mares, shuttled and also had to compete here with all those other "big fish in an ocean." The truth is that Easy Goer is mostly remembered today for his races against Sunday Silence, who won most of their head-to-head match ups. So who was the better horse when all is said and done? No contest. Sunday Silence.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Treve » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 am

You're missing the point whether intentionally or not. You cannot compare their first crops because the landscapes in which they bred were apples to bananas. You cannot compare because their offspring ran in different countries on different surfaces. What would Sunday's stats look like if his first crop had ran in the U.S.? NOBODY KNOWS. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. You cannot compare based on an unknown! Sunday Silence made racing in Japan what it is today, you seem to keep forgetting that Japanese racing at the time was barely burgeoning on the world stage. The stats are too hard to compare because it is impossible to gauge the quality average of then-Japanese horses to then-American horses.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive in a thread that is frequented by people who likely have Sunday Silence as one of their faves. He is one of my all time favourites and I have always preferred him over Easy Goer, but that doesn't mean I can't be objective about the fact their stud careers cannot be compared. In fact given those stats Flanders posted, there's every indication that Easy Goer could've been a stallion of significant influence. Probably not as much as Sunday Silence, but that's also a question of geography.

The Scat Daddy comparison makes even less sense because we are talking about two completely different eras, and as you said yourself he shuttled. That gives a stallion more chances to succeed, not less.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Retrospectiv » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:33 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud.


You're being obtuse and needlessly defensive of SS.

Sunday had 67 runners in his 1st crop, I'm not sure the number of named foals. That's nearly half of Easy Goer's ENTIRE number of foals.....he had 34 or 35 foals in his 1st crop. He was privately owned and to the best of my knowledge not syndicated. He simply didn't see the massive books these other sires did.

Scat Daddy? 1,156 foals. How in the WORLD does that compare to 136 foals. Total. Lifetime......???

And California horse? SS was foaled and raised right down the road from Easy Goer. He was sired by an expensive Kentucky/Maryland sire......
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:57 pm

Retrospectiv wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud.


You're being obtuse and needlessly defensive of SS.


If you say so, but it cuts both ways. Sunday Silence was born in Kentucky, but based in California his entire racing career, co-owned and trained by the great Charlie Whittingham and ridden by Pat Valenzuela, a California racing star jockey at the time. And the east vs. west rivalry is a matter of racing history, with easterners usually looking down upon California racing and horses. I'm not sure precisely when that began to turn around, but I'm glad it did.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Flanders » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:23 pm

Ridan_Remembered you seem to think we are saying that Easy Goer was the better stallion. No one here was saying that. All the rest of us agreed on was that Easy Goer wasn't a failure at stud. If you can't see that in his numbers, I don't know what else to say. Its like when people say Secretariat was a failure at stud, he wasn't.

If you want to compare Easy Goer's percentages. He falls right in between Candy Ride and Tapit. But I hate comparing a horse with 4 smalls crops to stallions who have 10 crops of racing age, because its impossible to say what would have happened if Easy Goer would have lived.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby tachyon » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:27 pm

Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.
As a stallion, Sunday Silence had a stronger stud record than Easy Goer.

No one will be able to deny the fact that Sunday Silence was a better thoroughbred, now ;)
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Retrospectiv » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:07 am

tachyon wrote:Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.



Better race record is subjective....

Head to head, you've got one decisive win for SS, one for EG. Then you've got a nose victory, and a diminishing head victory. Not so uneven between the two as runners really.

If you looked at their race records individually, removing their names and looking just at the races won - you'd be harder pressed to describe one race record as 'better' than the other. G1 wins....

1) Santa Anita derby
Kentucky Derby
Preakness
Super Derby
BC Classic
California Stakes

2) Cowdin Stakes
Champagne Stakes
Wood Memorial
Belmont Stakes
Whitney Handicap
Travers Stakes
Woodward Handicap
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Suburban Handicap

Quite impressive records, each.

Sire wise, yes, really no comparison.

For Easy Goer though, he had the equivalent of 1 crop of foals by the last 15 years plus standards. 9 stakes winners from 136 foals, and an AEI of 2.53 would be impressive for any. His AEI is higher than any current stallion in the top 50 of the 2018 General Sire's List. Curlin has the highest AEI, at 2.44
Failure he certainly was not, particularly given how limited his stud career was. And for all of Alydar's accolades, a sire of sires he was not.

Treve made some great comments re: the big fish, small pond. What would Sunday's stats have looked like, with 136 foals in Kentucky? Competing in a stallion market alongside Danzig, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Deputy Minister, etc. for mares?

It's all just questions obviously and you CAN'T compare the two given the vastly different worlds they stood stud in.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby tachyon » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:27 am

Retrospectiv wrote:
tachyon wrote:Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.



Better race record is subjective....

Head to head, you've got one decisive win for SS, one for EG. Then you've got a nose victory, and a diminishing head victory. Not so uneven between the two as runners really.

If you looked at their race records individually, removing their names and looking just at the races won - you'd be harder pressed to describe one race record as 'better' than the other. G1 wins....

1) Santa Anita derby
Kentucky Derby
Preakness
Super Derby
BC Classic
California Stakes

2) Cowdin Stakes
Champagne Stakes
Wood Memorial
Belmont Stakes
Whitney Handicap
Travers Stakes
Woodward Handicap
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Suburban Handicap

Quite impressive records, each.

Sire wise, yes, really no comparison.

For Easy Goer though, he had the equivalent of 1 crop of foals by the last 15 years plus standards. 9 stakes winners from 136 foals, and an AEI of 2.53 would be impressive for any. His AEI is higher than any current stallion in the top 50 of the 2018 General Sire's List. Curlin has the highest AEI, at 2.44
Failure he certainly was not, particularly given how limited his stud career was. And for all of Alydar's accolades, a sire of sires he was not.

Treve made some great comments re: the big fish, small pond. What would Sunday's stats have looked like, with 136 foals in Kentucky? Competing in a stallion market alongside Danzig, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Deputy Minister, etc. for mares?

It's all just questions obviously and you CAN'T compare the two given the vastly different worlds they stood stud in.


Well, don't get me wrong.
I don't disagree with what Treve said.
Sunday Silence might have been ''lucky'' standing at Shadai.
And Easy Goer could have been ''unlucky'' standing at Kentucky and passed away too early and sadly...
But, to make a comparison of the stallions' historical values, we have just look into their achievements as stallions.
The stallions' influences to the current racings will tell us which one is better.
Obviously, Sunday Silence's breed is becoming much more influential to the modern racings.

As for the race records, I know about the pp's of the two and saw the videos of course.
Okay, you may say it ''subjective'' and you must be right.
But, as far as I am concerned, Sunday Silence had a better race record.
Sunday won two of the triple crown races including the most prestigious Kentucky Derby.
Sunday also won the BC Classic which is considered the most prestigious 3yo&up dirt race in the world.

Sunday Silence was rightly voted the Horse of the Year & the best 3yo colt over Easy Goer in 1989.
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Re: The rise of Sunday Silence

Postby Treve » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:48 am

On that we agree. I just am not certain of statements like "Sunday Silence was the better thoroughbred", we don't really know and we never will what could have been with Easy Goer's genetic contribution but it is certainly accurate to say Sunday Silence's contribution to the breed has been tremendous, and far longer-lasting than EG's.
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Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


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