The rise of Sunday Silence

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Treve
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Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:26 pm

Turf racing is on the rise in the US, though. I was not thinking of Sunday Silence line stallions producing dirt offspring, I was mainly thinking turf, although I don't see why they wouldn't be good on dirt if bred to top US dirt mares.

Didn't know that about Hat Trick, he was still on their website and video the last time I looked which doesn't seem like it was that long ago :(
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
lurkey mclurker
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Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:21 pm

Food for thought...?
Melissa Bauer-Herzog @mbauerherzog
10h 10 hours ago

Study of Man is one of 41 winners from 55 starters bred on the Deep Impact/Storm Cat cross & one of 9 stakes winners. He joins Ayusan, Kizuna, Lachesis, Satono Aladdin, A Shin Hikari, and Real Steel as Group 1 winners bred on the cross. #TheMoreYouKnow @LongBallToNoOne @KeibaKate
Bolding was mine... also, Study of Man is going to the Arc! :mrgreen:
tachyon
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:06 am

Treve wrote:Turf racing is on the rise in the US, though. I was not thinking of Sunday Silence line stallions producing dirt offspring, I was mainly thinking turf, although I don't see why they wouldn't be good on dirt if bred to top US dirt mares.

Didn't know that about Hat Trick, he was still on their website and video the last time I looked which doesn't seem like it was that long ago :(
It was a shame that Hat Trick(JPN) couldn't hang in there in the states.
But his sire-line may prosper in Europe.
Dabirsim(FR) was well reperesented by his first crop (now 3yo) in the French Classic this year, even though he had not got top mares.
Coeur de Beaute(FR) finisned 2nd in the French 1000 Guineas.
Not Mine(GER) finished 5th in the French Derby yesterday (with a clear trip, he could have been closer...)
It sounds like he got better group of mares this year.
lurkey mclurker
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:54 pm

G @LongBallToNoOne Jun 5

RAINBOW LINE (Stay Gold) injured in winning the G1 3200m Tenno Sho will be retired, syndicated and sent to stud. Preparing him to race again was considered too risky.
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2018 ... nnex-horse
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Treve
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:53 pm

That's sad but I am glad they are doing right by him and choosing not to risk it. Also glad that he'll be sound enough to breed and that he's out of any danger. Thanks for the update!
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Ballerina
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Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:02 am

If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend DARK HORSES - the rivalry between Sunday Silence and Easy Goer.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the- ... ry-on-nbc/
tachyon
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Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:08 am

Ballerina wrote:If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend DARK HORSES - the rivalry between Sunday Silence and Easy Goer.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the- ... ry-on-nbc/
Thanks for sharing.

Sunday Silence proved to be a somewhat better thoroughbred than Easy Goer after all.
But I agree that both are great horses.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:25 pm

Well, reading the comments at that Paulick link, there was one very strong Easy Goer supporter who threw all sorts of statistics at the discussion except one. There is no question whatsoever that Sunday Silence was one of the greatest breed-shaping Thoroughbred sires of the last half century anywhere in the world. Easy Goer, on the other hand, was pretty much a failure at stud. I had hoped he would be a successful sire to carry on for Alydar, but it was not to be.
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Flanders
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Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:07 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Well, reading the comments at that Paulick link, there was one very strong Easy Goer supporter who threw all sorts of statistics at the discussion except one. There is no question whatsoever that Sunday Silence was one of the greatest breed-shaping Thoroughbred sires of the last half century anywhere in the world. Easy Goer, on the other hand, was pretty much a failure at stud. I had hoped he would be a successful sire to carry on for Alydar, but it was not to be.
While not on the same level as Sunday Silence, Easy Goer was far from a failure at stud. He only had 4 crops, the last one not full because of when he died. He sired 136 foals, 101 starters(74%). 74 winners(54%), 9 SWs(7%), 2.53 AEI and 3 G1SWs. Had he lived longer maybe he would have gotten a son to carry on the line but it wasn't meant to be.
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Retrospectiv
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Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:10 pm

Flanders wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Well, reading the comments at that Paulick link, there was one very strong Easy Goer supporter who threw all sorts of statistics at the discussion except one. There is no question whatsoever that Sunday Silence was one of the greatest breed-shaping Thoroughbred sires of the last half century anywhere in the world. Easy Goer, on the other hand, was pretty much a failure at stud. I had hoped he would be a successful sire to carry on for Alydar, but it was not to be.
While not on the same level as Sunday Silence, Easy Goer was far from a failure at stud. He only had 4 crops, the last one not full because of when he died. He sired 136 foals, 101 starters(74%). 74 winners(54%), 9 SWs(7%), 2.53 AEI and 3 G1SWs. Had he lived longer maybe he would have gotten a son to carry on the line but it wasn't meant to be.

^^ THIS.

Hard to compare a stallion who sired 136 foals vs one who sired 1558!
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Treve
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:51 am

It's also like comparing a big fish who started out in a smaller pond vs a big fish in an ocean. Perspective is important, US stallions are often compared in contrast to one another because we have so many. When you look at that optic vs looking at their individual stats, their results can seem less impressive than they actually are. At the time Sunday Silence turned up in the land of the rising sun, there weren't going to be that many stallions to compete with once he rapidly established himself.

I believe Sunday Silence would have always been a great stallion given how well he has done with a lot of different mares and his descendance continues to do well, but I have to question if he would have been as dominant in the USA when he'd have to have been competing a lot more fiercely for mares especially if he hadn't ended up standing in Kentucky. And yes even in Japan breeders were skeptical at first but given how he came out swinging he quickly got the who's who of mares. Japan gave Sunday Silence the opportunity to become a breed shaping sire and his descendants are now ready to conquer the world.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Ridan_Remembered
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest. Sunday was a smash hit right from his first crop. As a Californian, I well recall the disdain the eastern racing establishment had for Sunday Silence (indeed for most horses based or bred in California until relatively recently). He deserves vastly more respect here in the country of his birth than he has ever received. Sunday Silence was a truly great horse by any measure. He was the best horse of his generation when he raced here, and continues to be a massive influence as a sire everywhere in the world except the United States.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud. At the time, Easy Goer got top quality mares, whereas Scat Daddy got more average mares, shuttled and also had to compete here with all those other "big fish in an ocean." The truth is that Easy Goer is mostly remembered today for his races against Sunday Silence, who won most of their head-to-head match ups. So who was the better horse when all is said and done? No contest. Sunday Silence.
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Treve
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 am

You're missing the point whether intentionally or not. You cannot compare their first crops because the landscapes in which they bred were apples to bananas. You cannot compare because their offspring ran in different countries on different surfaces. What would Sunday's stats look like if his first crop had ran in the U.S.? NOBODY KNOWS. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. You cannot compare based on an unknown! Sunday Silence made racing in Japan what it is today, you seem to keep forgetting that Japanese racing at the time was barely burgeoning on the world stage. The stats are too hard to compare because it is impossible to gauge the quality average of then-Japanese horses to then-American horses.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive in a thread that is frequented by people who likely have Sunday Silence as one of their faves. He is one of my all time favourites and I have always preferred him over Easy Goer, but that doesn't mean I can't be objective about the fact their stud careers cannot be compared. In fact given those stats Flanders posted, there's every indication that Easy Goer could've been a stallion of significant influence. Probably not as much as Sunday Silence, but that's also a question of geography.

The Scat Daddy comparison makes even less sense because we are talking about two completely different eras, and as you said yourself he shuttled. That gives a stallion more chances to succeed, not less.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Retrospectiv
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:33 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud.
You're being obtuse and needlessly defensive of SS.

Sunday had 67 runners in his 1st crop, I'm not sure the number of named foals. That's nearly half of Easy Goer's ENTIRE number of foals.....he had 34 or 35 foals in his 1st crop. He was privately owned and to the best of my knowledge not syndicated. He simply didn't see the massive books these other sires did.

Scat Daddy? 1,156 foals. How in the WORLD does that compare to 136 foals. Total. Lifetime......???

And California horse? SS was foaled and raised right down the road from Easy Goer. He was sired by an expensive Kentucky/Maryland sire......
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Ridan_Remembered
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:57 pm

Retrospectiv wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:Ok, then compare only Sunday's first crop to the get of Easy Goer and you will find no contest.

Compare Easy Goer to, say, Scat Daddy. Both died young and had only a short time at stud.
You're being obtuse and needlessly defensive of SS.
If you say so, but it cuts both ways. Sunday Silence was born in Kentucky, but based in California his entire racing career, co-owned and trained by the great Charlie Whittingham and ridden by Pat Valenzuela, a California racing star jockey at the time. And the east vs. west rivalry is a matter of racing history, with easterners usually looking down upon California racing and horses. I'm not sure precisely when that began to turn around, but I'm glad it did.
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Flanders
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:23 pm

Ridan_Remembered you seem to think we are saying that Easy Goer was the better stallion. No one here was saying that. All the rest of us agreed on was that Easy Goer wasn't a failure at stud. If you can't see that in his numbers, I don't know what else to say. Its like when people say Secretariat was a failure at stud, he wasn't.

If you want to compare Easy Goer's percentages. He falls right in between Candy Ride and Tapit. But I hate comparing a horse with 4 smalls crops to stallions who have 10 crops of racing age, because its impossible to say what would have happened if Easy Goer would have lived.
tachyon
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Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:27 pm

Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.
As a stallion, Sunday Silence had a stronger stud record than Easy Goer.

No one will be able to deny the fact that Sunday Silence was a better thoroughbred, now ;)
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Retrospectiv
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Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:07 am

tachyon wrote:Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.

Better race record is subjective....

Head to head, you've got one decisive win for SS, one for EG. Then you've got a nose victory, and a diminishing head victory. Not so uneven between the two as runners really.

If you looked at their race records individually, removing their names and looking just at the races won - you'd be harder pressed to describe one race record as 'better' than the other. G1 wins....

1) Santa Anita derby
Kentucky Derby
Preakness
Super Derby
BC Classic
California Stakes

2) Cowdin Stakes
Champagne Stakes
Wood Memorial
Belmont Stakes
Whitney Handicap
Travers Stakes
Woodward Handicap
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Suburban Handicap

Quite impressive records, each.

Sire wise, yes, really no comparison.

For Easy Goer though, he had the equivalent of 1 crop of foals by the last 15 years plus standards. 9 stakes winners from 136 foals, and an AEI of 2.53 would be impressive for any. His AEI is higher than any current stallion in the top 50 of the 2018 General Sire's List. Curlin has the highest AEI, at 2.44
Failure he certainly was not, particularly given how limited his stud career was. And for all of Alydar's accolades, a sire of sires he was not.

Treve made some great comments re: the big fish, small pond. What would Sunday's stats have looked like, with 136 foals in Kentucky? Competing in a stallion market alongside Danzig, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Deputy Minister, etc. for mares?

It's all just questions obviously and you CAN'T compare the two given the vastly different worlds they stood stud in.
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tachyon
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Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:27 am

Retrospectiv wrote:
tachyon wrote:Well, racing is all about the comparison, we like it or not. :lol:

As a racehorse, Sunday Silence had a better race record than Easy Goer.

Better race record is subjective....

Head to head, you've got one decisive win for SS, one for EG. Then you've got a nose victory, and a diminishing head victory. Not so uneven between the two as runners really.

If you looked at their race records individually, removing their names and looking just at the races won - you'd be harder pressed to describe one race record as 'better' than the other. G1 wins....

1) Santa Anita derby
Kentucky Derby
Preakness
Super Derby
BC Classic
California Stakes

2) Cowdin Stakes
Champagne Stakes
Wood Memorial
Belmont Stakes
Whitney Handicap
Travers Stakes
Woodward Handicap
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Suburban Handicap

Quite impressive records, each.

Sire wise, yes, really no comparison.

For Easy Goer though, he had the equivalent of 1 crop of foals by the last 15 years plus standards. 9 stakes winners from 136 foals, and an AEI of 2.53 would be impressive for any. His AEI is higher than any current stallion in the top 50 of the 2018 General Sire's List. Curlin has the highest AEI, at 2.44
Failure he certainly was not, particularly given how limited his stud career was. And for all of Alydar's accolades, a sire of sires he was not.

Treve made some great comments re: the big fish, small pond. What would Sunday's stats have looked like, with 136 foals in Kentucky? Competing in a stallion market alongside Danzig, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Deputy Minister, etc. for mares?

It's all just questions obviously and you CAN'T compare the two given the vastly different worlds they stood stud in.
Well, don't get me wrong.
I don't disagree with what Treve said.
Sunday Silence might have been ''lucky'' standing at Shadai.
And Easy Goer could have been ''unlucky'' standing at Kentucky and passed away too early and sadly...
But, to make a comparison of the stallions' historical values, we have just look into their achievements as stallions.
The stallions' influences to the current racings will tell us which one is better.
Obviously, Sunday Silence's breed is becoming much more influential to the modern racings.

As for the race records, I know about the pp's of the two and saw the videos of course.
Okay, you may say it ''subjective'' and you must be right.
But, as far as I am concerned, Sunday Silence had a better race record.
Sunday won two of the triple crown races including the most prestigious Kentucky Derby.
Sunday also won the BC Classic which is considered the most prestigious 3yo&up dirt race in the world.

Sunday Silence was rightly voted the Horse of the Year & the best 3yo colt over Easy Goer in 1989.
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Treve
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Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:48 am

On that we agree. I just am not certain of statements like "Sunday Silence was the better thoroughbred", we don't really know and we never will what could have been with Easy Goer's genetic contribution but it is certainly accurate to say Sunday Silence's contribution to the breed has been tremendous, and far longer-lasting than EG's.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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