horses with unique coloring/facial markings

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Retrospectiv
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:35 pm

Another thing to keep in mind for those conspiracy theorists...

Colour breeding among TBs has only been a fad for the last 20 years or so. Previously oddly coloured ones were culled or not registered. For a racing bred horse, there would have been less than ZERO reason to try and breed colour in via any other breed as no saddlebred or anything else was going to add anything racing genetics wise.

As far as the non- dilutes go, the W white spotting gene horses have been well researched and they know where the mutation genes occur when a new one pops up, and they know that the gene does get passed on once a new mutation line has been established.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway', but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies."
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Treve
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Retrospectiv wrote:Another thing to keep in mind for those conspiracy theorists...

Colour breeding among TBs has only been a fad for the last 20 years or so. Previously oddly coloured ones were culled or not registered. For a racing bred horse, there would have been less than ZERO reason to try and breed colour in via any other breed as no saddlebred or anything else was going to add anything racing genetics wise.
Bingo!
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Falinadin
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:26 pm

I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.
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Treve
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Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Since the cream dilution isn't a spontaneous mutation that's unlikely. And the true dun mutation doesn't exist in thoroughbreds. Other dilutions like Pearl, Champagne and Silver haven't been observed either.
Around that time Saddlebreds would've been pretty valuable on their own as their popularity was increasing stateside and internationally, I don't think it would've made sense to buy a saddlebred or saddlebred x foal to resell you'd have barely broke even I'd imagine which then would've not brought you any closer to recouping the stud fee.

Additionally as Flanders pointed out, there are more than just a single ancestor noted in all TBs pedigrees, I think it very unlikely that out of all those original ancestors the gene wouldn't have survived in one line? The Byerley Turk though his tail male descendants are rare himself features more than any of the other three founding stallions in overall % of pedigree. And honestly even studying some of the historical paintings of Stud Book individuals, I see some with rather ambiguous colouring. I think it's more likely they just never bothered to narrow down on the colours. As pointed out, even Milkie was advertised as a light chestnut early on. The same way the jockey club has the colour 'grey or roan' when the two are genetically distinct and the latter doesn't exist in TBs I don't see why the opposite can't be true. "Oh it has a brownish body and some darker points, it's a bay/brown/dark brown".

Observing colour by phenotype is subjective, you see it even in humans. If you go to Romania and ask whether an ash hair colour is brown or blonde you're going to get a different answer than if you go ask a Swede. I'd be curious to know when and how the term 'buckskin' even came into use.
In French we have multiple words to describe horse colours but often they are misleading and since some are fairly ancient they've got nothing to do with genotype. Sometimes the same term can refer to actually genetically distinct colours.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Miss Woodford
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:47 am

Falinadin wrote:I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.
Exactly. It wasn't that saddlebred blood was slipped into the 2nd or 3rd dam, it's that one of the dams isn't who they claimed it was. No DNA testing, no videotape of the covering, no photographs = no way of verifying. The complete lack of racing ability in any of these Milkie and Glitter Please descendants is also interesting - there have been successful pinto TBs and white TBs on the track but not one dilute has ever won a race, or even come close.
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Delamont
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:54 am

Miss Woodford wrote:
Falinadin wrote:I think that fraud wouldn't have been that hard, and likely wasn't done on purpose to add color to the breed. Say someone in 1920 has a decent mare, they take her to a reputable place and a good stallion. She foals, but the foal dies young. Owner doesn't want to be out the money, so they go to the local market and buy a "bay" filly (who is a sooty buckskin 1/2 saddlebred), stick her out in their field and say she's the original foal. Take her to a yearling sale, she is registered and raced, passes along her dilute gene.
Good mare goes to good stud but slips, and is covered by the teaser. etc, etc. I could come up with a ton of ways in which fraud was committed and the foal comes out with a "legit" predigree and a dilute gene.
The JC revoking papers now doesn't change fraud that may have happened 100 years ago. I tend to agree with Katewerk. I have a hard time buying that dilute horses have had dilute-carrying ancestors for the past 200+ years, who all just so happened to be very sooty buckskin/smokey black (black isn't a common coat color either) and weren't noticed. If a founding horse had dilute genes, I'd expect a lot more palominos in the stud book. Could the dilute horses have been the result of a random mutation? Sure, we just don't have the parental DNA to prove it.
Exactly. It wasn't that saddlebred blood was slipped into the 2nd or 3rd dam, it's that one of the dams isn't who they claimed it was. No DNA testing, no videotape of the covering, no photographs = no way of verifying. The complete lack of racing ability in any of these Milkie and Glitter Please descendants is also interesting - there have been successful pinto TBs and white TBs on the track but not one dilute has ever won a race, or even come close.
White TBs...Japan seems to have a corner on the market with Yukichan and such.
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:00 am

This is very much unrelated to the above discussion, but I thought of it when I came across this article. And I don't see any place better to post it.

Byerley Turk Reaching The End Of The Line
By Chris McGrath
As we all know, the only bottom line most breeders really care about is found at the base of a balance sheet. And the ink they use, red or black, tends to be ascribed sooner to the top line of a pedigree than to the one running along the bottom. Commercial yearlings are branded first and foremost by their sires, even though the equal genetic contribution of the dam should make her family of critical interest.

On the one hand, then, it was edifying to see three Classics in eight days magnify names in the bottom line: Miesque (Nureyev) as grand-dam of G1 Prix du Jockey-Club winner Study Of Man (Fr) (Deep Impact {Jpn}) and great-grand-dam of G1 Irish 1,000 Guineas winner Alpha Centauri (Ire) (Mastercraftsman {Ire}); and the great Urban Sea (Miswaki) as fourth dam of Derby winner Masar (Ire) (New Approach {Ire}), besides also being dam of his grandsire.

Arguably, however, both Miesque and Urban Sea are exceptions to prove the rule. As such celebrities, in both their racing and breeding careers, they stand out luminously in a family tree: barely less of a short-cut, in terms of attention span, than crediting everything to the sire. But when Study Of Man, for instance, takes one of the best pedigrees in Europe to stud, we should be no less interested in all the other spars and buttresses that support the family around his famous grand-dam. It will be easy enough, at that stage, to be excited by the fact that Study Of Man is out of a mare by one of the great modern broodmare sires in Storm Cat. But how many people, in renewing their admiration for Miesque, are still asking themselves how much of her priceless legacy might be credited to her mother Pasodoble-who was by Prove Out (Graustark) out of a Sanctus (Fr) (Fine Top {Fr}) mare?
More: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/by ... -the-line/
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Treve
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Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:42 am

The matter of genetic diversity is a serious one particularly in this breed. It's something very much on my mind as we are running into a lot of trouble for lack of genetic diversity in my breed of the canine persuasion (Doberman Pinschers... aptly nicknamed 'The Thoroughbred of the Canine race' by the French) I think that article deserves its own topic SC! Thank you for sharing.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
BaroqueAgain1
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Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:45 am

(Doberman Pinschers... aptly nicknamed 'The Thoroughbred of the Canine race' by the French)

I like the nickname a friend of mine gave them: Medium-Range Cruise Missiles. ;)
lurkey mclurker
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Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:10 pm

via Twitter, @buena_vista23 - '17 Incognito (JPN) (Gone West x Daneskaya [GB]), by Gold Ship (JPN)

a cute filly... hope she doesn't grey out like her papa, the half-white half-dark eyelashes are killing me <3
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TapitsGal
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Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:38 pm

Maybe I’m just a horse geek but I find the whole color genetics topic in horses and dogs interesting. For example my lab mix Madi is three. She’s a rescue I adopted around Christmas 2014. Her body is black and white with spots. She very much has the size and body of what a rat terrier would. Her size and hind end markings and tail look almost exactly like those of my best friends beagle. We actually joke that they’re twins when Their together. Her head however is all tan with Very little to almost no black with the exception of black rings around her eyes that resemble eye liner. When you look at her head your first thought is that she resembles a rat terrier or a collie. She came up from Texas on a transport truck with a litter of ten other puppies. One puppy was solid white white black markings, another puppy was solid black with white chest and white feet. The remaining puppies were solid black. My dog was the only tri-colored one. The remaining puppies were solid black and all the puppies clearly resembled labs. With Madi it’s harder to tell.We were told at the rescue my dog is lab and some sort of spaniel. She’s also smaller at only 32 pounds full Grown...because of her coloring and genetics intreague me
djnorth
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Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:23 am

TapitsGal wrote:Maybe I’m just a horse geek but I find the whole color genetics topic in horses and dogs interesting. For example my lab mix Madi is three. She’s a rescue I adopted around Christmas 2014. Her body is black and white with spots. She very much has the size and body of what a rat terrier would. Her size and hind end markings and tail look almost exactly like those of my best friends beagle. We actually joke that they’re twins when Their together. Her head however is all tan with Very little to almost no black with the exception of black rings around her eyes that resemble eye liner. When you look at her head your first thought is that she resembles a rat terrier or a collie. She came up from Texas on a transport truck with a litter of ten other puppies. One puppy was solid white white black markings, another puppy was solid black with white chest and white feet. The remaining puppies were solid black. My dog was the only tri-colored one. The remaining puppies were solid black and all the puppies clearly resembled labs. With Madi it’s harder to tell.We were told at the rescue my dog is lab and some sort of spaniel. She’s also smaller at only 32 pounds full Grown...because of her coloring and genetics intreague me
Not cheap (around $200) but have you run her DNA? Not that it matters but sometimes it's interesting. I think a lot of shelters are pressed to come up with "possible breeds" and it can be nearly impossible sometimes. Also it's funny that usually it's a two-breed guess maximum! I'm tempted to run it on my aunt's dog. The rescue said pug/ daschund but it looks like some terrier (Schnauzer?) as well.
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Diver52
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Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:37 pm

My local German Shorthaired Pointer rescue (they're hunting types, usually a mix of brown and white, and, obviously, shorthaired) picked up a very pregnant female purebred and every one of her 10 or 11 puppies was a shaggy black big-terrier type!
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
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Katewerk
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Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:34 am

djnorth wrote: Not cheap (around $200) but have you run her DNA? Not that it matters but sometimes it's interesting. I think a lot of shelters are pressed to come up with "possible breeds" and it can be nearly impossible sometimes. Also it's funny that usually it's a two-breed guess maximum! I'm tempted to run it on my aunt's dog. The rescue said pug/ daschund but it looks like some terrier (Schnauzer?) as well.
General consensus on those in the serious dog world is "a fool and their money". Not particularly reliable.
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Treve
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Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:25 am

Depends which ones, some are more accurate than others but as far as I am aware most of those serious DNA tests are primarily designed with mapping the genome of specific purebreds for health and informatio, rather than to determine ancestry. The big one with my breed is done via Embark for the Doberman Diversity Project. If you've got cash to burn, take katewerk's advice and approach with a grain of salt.

Editing to add the link to Embark: https://embarkvet.com/
Only one I'd feel comfortable recommending, but again to be taken with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Treve on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
djnorth
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:52 am

Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:27 am

Katewerk wrote:
djnorth wrote: Not cheap (around $200) but have you run her DNA? Not that it matters but sometimes it's interesting. I think a lot of shelters are pressed to come up with "possible breeds" and it can be nearly impossible sometimes. Also it's funny that usually it's a two-breed guess maximum! I'm tempted to run it on my aunt's dog. The rescue said pug/ daschund but it looks like some terrier (Schnauzer?) as well.
General consensus on those in the serious dog world is "a fool and their money". Not particularly reliable.
It's weird; I've gotten mixed opinions from the vets I've asked. Some say it's pretty accurate; others question why "pit bull" (whatever that is!) were purposely excluded, at least early in the process.
TapitsGal
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Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:27 pm

djnorth wrote:
TapitsGal wrote:Maybe I’m just a horse geek but I find the whole color genetics topic in horses and dogs interesting. For example my lab mix Madi is three. She’s a rescue I adopted around Christmas 2014. Her body is black and white with spots. She very much has the size and body of what a rat terrier would. Her size and hind end markings and tail look almost exactly like those of my best friends beagle. We actually joke that they’re twins when Their together. Her head however is all tan with Very little to almost no black with the exception of black rings around her eyes that resemble eye liner. When you look at her head your first thought is that she resembles a rat terrier or a collie. She came up from Texas on a transport truck with a litter of ten other puppies. One puppy was solid white white black markings, another puppy was solid black with white chest and white feet. The remaining puppies were solid black. My dog was the only tri-colored one. The remaining puppies were solid black and all the puppies clearly resembled labs. With Madi it’s harder to tell.We were told at the rescue my dog is lab and some sort of spaniel. She’s also smaller at only 32 pounds full Grown...because of her coloring and genetics intreague me
Not cheap (around $200) but have you run her DNA? Not that it matters but sometimes it's interesting. I think a lot of shelters are pressed to come up with "possible breeds" and it can be nearly impossible sometimes. Also it's funny that usually it's a two-breed guess maximum! I'm tempted to run it on my aunt's dog. The rescue said pug/ daschund but it looks like some terrier (Schnauzer?) as well.
I have not run her dna but it’s something I’ve always been meaning to do. I’ve been trying to save up the money to get one
TapitsGal
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Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:40 pm

I visit hospitals with her. We also work as part of a hospice agency and visit hospice clients in nursing homes :lol: if I had a dollar for every time each week I get asked what breed(s) Madi is I’d probably be rich. Best responses to my answers about her breed come from the elderly. One lady said to her companion “you better sit down before she says how many breeds are in that dog”....I work with Alzheimer’s and dementia patients....some of them insist they’ve known Madi her whole life(we’ve only been assigned to this client since last September)...they tell me she lives with them...I love my elderly clients. Regardless of her breed Madi has the BEST temperament and she’s super sweet. She can sit in the ER with me when I’m sick(she’s also my assistance dog) and none of the hustle bothers her. Or she comes to my class lectures with me sometimes and will just quietly lay under the table with her head on my foot and listen to the lecture. And I’m an animal Science major and my concentration is animal behavior so all my teachers are pretty cool with her being there. The only classes Madi doesn’t go to are my labs and my equine classes when I know we’re i the barn that night
djnorth
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Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:52 am

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am

Madi sounds phenomenal. Congratulations on your getting to share your life with her.
TapitsGal
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Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Thanks I refer to her as my child and don’t know what I’d do without her
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