horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby CoronadosQuest » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:36 pm

Flanders wrote:Barbara Livingston posted some more pictures of him.
https://twitter.com/DRFLivingston/status/979875207228936192

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:I don't think this is the first time I've seen a Bodemeister with really flashy white markings. He must have some interesting genes back in his pedigree. ;)

This colt is bred in the purple. Its coming from his sire. Unbridled, Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, Northern Dancer, etc. Which leads me to wonder if we are getting more loudly colored horses because of the amount of inbreeding in the population? Doubling up on horses who are known to have a lot of white in their lines?

Interesting there are no new pictures of his other side. They always show the side with the eyeliner and brown eye. His other side he has no eyeliner and a blue eye.


Image
Image

Barbara Livingston
@DRFLivingston
A few more shots of SOUTHERN PHANTOM, an unraced 2yo son of Bodemeister, bred by Southern Equine, trained by Eric Guillot. This head-turner is training at Palm Meadows in Florida.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby lurkey mclurker » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:46 pm

So is that all splash, or some sabino in there? Wow he's an interesting one! 8-)
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:57 pm

I suspect I may be the only poster here who isn't in love with his looks. :oops:
Is he flashy? Yes.
Is all that white a good thing? That's where I have doubts.
I look at all that pink skin on his muzzle and wonder about sunburn. Or Melanoma. :(
The white stockings, with the underlying pink skin, runs down through his hooves, from what I can see. Will that increase the possibility of softer hooves?
For me, the black edging around the eyes (at least, 1 1/2 eyes) makes his eyes look better. I find a pink-edged eye can appear piggish, and makes the eye look smaller than it is.
I really hope that breeders aren't trying to breed more 'color' into our racehorses.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Miss Woodford » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:59 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:I suspect I may be the only poster here who isn't in love with his looks. :oops:
Is he flashy? Yes.
Is all that white a good thing? That's where I have doubts.
I look at all that pink skin on his muzzle and wonder about sunburn. Or Melanoma. :(
The white stockings, with the underlying pink skin, runs down through his hooves, from what I can see. Will that increase the possibility of softer hooves?
For me, the black edging around the eyes (at least, 1 1/2 eyes) makes his eyes look better. I find a pink-edged eye can appear piggish, and makes the eye look smaller than it is.
I really hope that breeders aren't trying to breed more 'color' into our racehorses.

There is no evidence that white hooves are "softer" or more prone to injury, that's an old wives' tale. As for sunburn, most Paints and Appaloosas with white faces don't seem to have major problems with that. Gray horses are far more at risk for melanomas.

Southern Phantom is by Bodemeister (who just has a blaze and sock) out of a plain-brown-wrapper Bernardini mare from the family of Minardi, Tale of the Cat, Johannesburg, etc. I hate krazy kolor breeding too but this horse is definitely not a product of that.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Retrospectiv » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:09 am

lurkey mclurker wrote:So is that all splash, or some sabino in there? Wow he's an interesting one! 8-)


There is no sabino (sb1) in thoroughbreds, and oddly none have tested positive for splash though many look CLASSIC splash (this colt included).
Phantom would be a new kit mutation (like you see when a new white/white spotted TB crops up), so not just the 'sum of his ancestors' colour wise. I'm sure at some point they'll come up with a gene name for this splash mimicker in TBs.
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:16 am

Thanks for answering my question about the light-colored hooves, Miss W.
If his nose is no more sensitive to sunburn than darker horses, that's good for him.
My lack of fondness for all that white and pink is just based on aesthetics, then. :P :D
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Treve » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:48 am

I know some people who live with pink-skinned horses in higher altitudes do some level of sun-related management (I've heard of people tattooing their pink eyelidded horses black in Colorado for example) but that's not really a thing. Some people in sunnier locations might apply sunscreen on their noses but it was never done on the medicine-hat paint we had at the barn
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:11 pm

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to ask, as I do not mean in any way to cast doubt on this colt's breeding, but I wonder if some of the unusual coloring we see from time to time in Thoroughbreds might come from less-than-ethical breeders crossing a TB to a non-TB, then registering the foal as a TB. If this happened, it would have been more likely back in the pre-DNA days. Are Thoroughbreds DNA tested for registration these days?
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Treve » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to ask, as I do not mean in any way to cast doubt on this colt's breeding, but I wonder if some of the unusual coloring we see from time to time in Thoroughbreds might come from less-than-ethical breeders crossing a TB to a non-TB, then registering the foal as a TB. If this happened, it would have been more likely back in the pre-DNA days. Are Thoroughbreds DNA tested for registration these days?


I think if that were the case we would have found the splash gene in thoroughbreds. It's more likely that, much like arabians, white was hidden. Owners of Sabino arabians in the past were often advised to fudge the registration papers by not writing down any excessive white (anything reaching the knees, chin or belly spots) sometimes the Arabian Horse registry itself would send back papers and tell the owners this! Some foals were also, tragically culled. Don't think this is the case in Tbreds (the culling), but it wouldn't be surprising if they weren't exactly advertised.

Also in both dogs and horses alike, before the understanding of genetics, excessive white or white-patterned was treated in the same line of thinking you have - that it must come from outcrossing and the animal is therefore not purebred. The word "piebald" was used as meaning mongrel back in the day. The reality is Tbred breeders would have no reason to outcross to non-tbs unless they wanted to produce a slower animal which is just not logical. (Unless they're willing to use racing QHs or PHs but Northern Taste was born in 1971 and along with Sunday Silence was probably one of the biggest influences of speed and stamina in Japan)

Colour genetics can be tricky as there can be more than a single element at play in determining markings. You've got the genes for whatever pattern, yes, but you also have the white factor. A horse could inherit a single splash or Sabino gene but having little to no white factor, the subsequent markings might not appear as anything beyond the ordinary star/blaze/socks
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: horses with unique coloring/facial markings

Postby Flanders » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:40 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to ask, as I do not mean in any way to cast doubt on this colt's breeding, but I wonder if some of the unusual coloring we see from time to time in Thoroughbreds might come from less-than-ethical breeders crossing a TB to a non-TB, then registering the foal as a TB. If this happened, it would have been more likely back in the pre-DNA days. Are Thoroughbreds DNA tested for registration these days?

They've been DNA tested since 2001. They check parentage of every foal. They've used DNA samples to identify abandoned horses too. Before DNA they used frozen blood samples to verify parentage.
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