question re: vertigineux

question re: vertigineux

Postby sweettalk » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:19 pm

i'm actually sort of afraid to ask, but, oh well. we have some very knowledgeable breeders here, so hopefully someone can teach me something.

her son souper spectacular (giant's causeway) was three time winner in 9 starts, looking sort of ok in allowance/aoc races. he was gelded.

right now, eblouissante (bernardini) is 2 for four, if we want to toss her meltdown in her only stakes company that's ok. she was second today in an allowance nw2, so she looks to be about the same caliber as her half brother.

vertigineux as a grand dam has 6 named grandfoals, 5 have raced, none have won. what makes eblouissante more valuable as a breeding prospect than souper spectacular?
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby summerhorse » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:32 pm

Because she is a mare and mares only have one foal a year. Mares also can look totally useless on the track and turn out to be good producers. Stallions are pretty plentiful and would not get much of a chance to prove they are anything beyond average.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:41 pm

IMHO, it comes down to the fact that a mare will have only one foal a year, making her produce relatively more valuable than a related stallion's one breeding fee. A good broodmare band may be worth more than all the stallions on the grounds, but it's a long game...a very long game.
Stallions need much more on their resume to become worth keeping intact. Souper Spectacular was mediocre, at best, on the track. His own sire, Giant's Causeway, is still alive and active, and also has dozens of sons with much better race records standing at stud around the world.
Souper' just may not have had enough outstanding characteristics besides his pedigree to outweigh his pedestrian performances. Maybe his conformation or character were lacking...maybe there was zero interest from any farm to stand him. Maybe he was a bad actor, and it was turning into a real pain in the azz to keep him intact.
Just some things to consider.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby sweettalk » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:45 am

i'd be more afraid of a mare only in that if she drops a foal that can't run, that year (if you're very intent on her producing a serious race horse) is like... a loss? kind of? if that makes sense? you'd have a higher chance of the stallion making it if you are selective about the mares he sees, but i get that not every breeder is ken ramsey and can supply those mares. @BA1, i didnt consider any of those, actually. so thanks for a gentle reminder (john henry was proof of that if i recall, gelded for behaviour reasons, not that it helped, heh.)

how high would eb's value be at this point, vertigineux's recent produce record, her sisters' produce record and other direct family ("cousins" and the like) taken into consideration?

2 horses that are similar on paper as far as credentials, but one being more valuable was something i really want(ed?) to learn more about, but as i was initially met with ridicule i really didn't want to ask any further. so, thank you for reading/explaining for me.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:54 am

I can't speculate on Ebby's value ATM, but she sold fairly recently for $2.1 million.
Is it a gamble on whether she will be productive as a broodmare? Of course....but breeding racehorses is still 'breed the best to the best...and hope for the best.'
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Allspice » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:19 am

Her female family as a whole is strong. Look at the entire thing, rather than just Vertigineux alone. What has her dam produced? What did her 2nd dam produce? 3rd, 4th? And what have their daughters produced? If the answer is "consistent blacktype up to the present", which is the case here, her race record matters very little. Think of it this way, Vertigineux, her dam For the Flag and her dam In the Offing weren't stakes winners, but in the end that didn't matter because they produced stakes winners. And so did their daughters/granddaughters (well, For the Flag and In the Offing's did...jury is still out on Vertigineux).

It's very different with stallions. Pedigree alone isn't enough to make them stand out, there is too much competition.
Souper Spectacular is apparently still owned by Live Oak and lives there. At least that's what I found via Google. I couldn't find why they gelded him, it could have been a number of reasons, like BaroqueAgain pointed out.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Izvestia » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 am

Something to think about- there are a lot of nicely bred colts out there that don't amount to much on the track. The best thing to do is snip them and hope they retire as someone's riding horse. Souper Spectacular may have been a complete nut, or perhaps he had trouble with his man bits? He isn't really from a good sire-producing family. Nicely bred colts that weren't great racehorses are a dime a dozen. Look at some of the pedigrees that get moved to Indiana or South Korea- some of those horses were a BIG deal when they retired to stud, and now they're WHO? Is Souper Spectacular really going to get many mares to breed, based on being a half brother to Zenyatta? You can go to some far more talented Giant's Causeway colts, like First Samurai (who is proven), or Eskendereya, Creative Cause, or even Hold Me Back. Heck, even City Wolf--- look at the sire producing family on that guy!

That all being said...
There is value in Eblouissante (sure I spelled that wrong), regardless of whether she is an allowance horse or not. Vertigineux has produced two (remarkable) race mares in Zenyatta and Balance, both of whom are still young and have only gotten started as broodmares. So what if Mr Besilu actually hasn't done anything on the track...he sold for $4.2 million. Some people in this business aren't about winning races, they are about selling well-bred horses at Saratoga or Keeneland.
If Eblouissante is bred to a nice stallion and produces something that doesn't have screwed on backwards legs, and has some quality, they'll make money selling her babies at auction. OR, they'll keep it and run it. Better off selling it, IMO.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby sweettalk » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:08 am

i guess what really makes me curious is seeing a lot of bubble wrapped colts - regally bred and as soon as they win any race of any importance, all of a sudden they're much more valuable at stud to the point where they'll retire at the end of the 3 yr old season for no reason other than they'll make more money in the shed. so seeing mares thought of like this, especially when lately we've had some STELLAR mares that run a season or two more than we expect, especially compared to the colts, just, i really want to learn the breeding side better.

i enjoy reading what everyone's telling me, and appreciate the time/effort put in to explaining and giving examples.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:05 am

sweettalk, you might want to check out some of the racing sites like Bloodhorse and Paulick Report to look for articles and/or blogs that discuss breeding and pedigrees. I know Bloodhorse usually has an article every week or so focusing in depth on the pedigree of a horse, perhaps some promising three-year-old that just won a stakes. Those have helped me understand TB bloodlines a little better.
Have fun.
Last edited by BaroqueAgain1 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Flanders » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:54 am

I remember when Live Oak pensioned and gelded High Fly, there was an article on Bloodhorse. The things that were said in the article really stuck with me. I felt it was why, down the road, they decided to geld Souper Spectacular.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/61367/high-fly-pensioned-then-gelded
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