question re: vertigineux

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby hadrianmarcus » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:43 am

Flanders wrote:I remember when Live Oak pensioned and gelded High Fly, there was an article on Bloodhorse. The things that were said in the article really stuck with me. I felt it was why, down the road, they decided to geld Souper Spectacular.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/61367/high-fly-pensioned-then-gelded


That is a great link. Breeders like to highlight how pampered the stallions are...but that article brought home some of the real limitations for a stallion at the breeding farm, such as socialization and sometimes exercise. I always liked the fact that Three Chimneys galloped their stallions a mile and a quarter under tack six days a week. I hope they continue that practice. A couple old Bloodhorse articles highlighted this practice and stressed it was not only for the physical well being on the stallion but mentality as well.
hadrianmarcus
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:28 pm

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:19 pm

One of the greatest broodmares of all time, La Troienne, had 7 starts with 0 wins, 1 place and 1 show. However, she produced 15 foals, 10 of whom won, and 5 stakes winners. The Thoroughbred as we know it today would not exist without the influence of La Troienne and her offspring.

Another great broodmare, Somethingroyal, had only one start and finished out of the money. She produced four stakes winners including Secretariat and his half-brother, Sir Gaylord. Both were influential sires.

One of the greatest sires of all time only raced four times as a two-year-old. He was retired due to a bowed tendon after setting or equaling three track records in his four starts. He never raced farther than 5 1/2 furlongs. His name? Raise a Native

My point is that while performance on the racetrack is more important for a colt to get a chance as a sire, there are examples of important sires who were unraced or, like Raise a Native, raced only a handful of times. The opposite is true for mares. There are far many more instances of broodmares who were unraced or never did much on the track, but who went on to become important broodmares. For reasons known only to nature, most top winning mares don't make top broodmares. There certainly are examples of some top winners who go on to great records as producers, but they are more the exception than the rule.

Young stallions, on the other hand, must have something to offer people who will pay their stud fees. Until they have progeny to demonstrate their effectiveness as sires, all there is to go on is their race record, conformation, temperament, pedigree and, these days, what the sales market wants. If any one of those things is lacking, the horse is not likely to get a chance at stud.

As much as I personally don't choose to see them that way, horses are livestock. Livestock must pay its way. Racehorses pay their way by making money on the racetrack or producing in the shed. Today's breeding industry is all about the sales. A mare can produce a pretty baby by an established sire, and six months to a year later her baby could bring in hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars without ever having set foot on a racetrack. A stallion can't do that. He pays his way through stud fees.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Izvestia » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:29 pm

I just wanted to add to Ridan_Remembered and say that horses like Raise a Native, Danzig, or even Malibu Moon, showed BRILLIANCE, but were lightly raced because of injury. We wouldn't call Souper Spectacular brilliant. He really is ordinary.
Izvestia
 
Posts: 3663
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:16 am

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby halo » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:22 pm

It has nothing to do with the fact that mares only have one foal vs stallions having a crop. It has to do with the fact that with thoroughbreds, the female family is the point of value with them. Ebb...whatever's foals will always have a remarkable female family involved. Her foals will always be "out of a half sister to Zenyatta and Balance". Its all about the family.

With a stallion from that same breeding, there is no female family to produce on. His foals will have the family of the mares he is bred to, and likely a less than stellar racehorse won't have the same mare power to produce from that a top stallion will. So that unless, for some reason, he turns into the next War Front, his foals will have little to no value.
halo
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby Acadiana » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:06 pm

halo wrote:It has nothing to do with the fact tpedigrees only have one foal vs stallions having a crop. It has to do with the fact that with thoroughbreds, the female family is the point of value with them. Ebb...whatever's foals will always have a remarkable female family involved. Her foals will always be "out of a half sister to Zenyatta and Balance". Its all about the family.

With a stallion from that same breeding, there is no female family to produce on. His foals will have the family of the mares he is bred to, and likely a less than stellar racehorse won't have the same mare power to produce from that a top stallion will. So that unless, for some reason, he turns into the next War Front, his foals will have little to no value.


Although, War Front was both well bred and a talented grade 2 winner. Souper is really only one.

But yeah, it's all about the mare in the TB breeding world. The "x factor gene" has been talked and researched about a lot and can kind of explain this reasoning. A strong female producing family means a lot in a pedigree for a mare because it's been shown to continue in many instances, but just being well bred is a lot more hit and miss for a stallion.

Plus, I always look at it as it's easier to breed a mare "up" to a stallion who was more talented than she was. Such as, Ebby will go to an accomplished, proven stallion versus Souper who would have been bred to more than likely not so talented mares and expected to improve them.
Acadiana
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby mimi6920 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:37 pm

I agree with a lot of what is being said, but I think there is a lot more mystery than you guys are suggesting. For example, Maclean's Music had one career start, and sure his Beyer was high for that start, but a lot of horses achieve brilliance one time and are never heard from again. Despite this, he found a farm to stand him at stud, and from what I hear, he generally got a nice book of mares.

Wilburn won a grade two race and a few allowance races. Furthermore the horses he beat were not world beaters even though he did win a grade two. Yet somehow off to stud he went where he bred almost 170 mares in each year he has been at stud.

Elusive Quality won two grade three races as a five year old. The rest of his victories were all allowance races. Freud was sent to stud on pedigree alone (full brother to Giant's Causeway). In twelve starts, he won one race, the Special Maiden Empire Stakes.

I guess what I am saying is, on pedigree alone Souper could possibly have stood at stud especially in a market like New York. In most cases, the best sires are those who come from a strong female family, and he came from a great one.
mimi6920
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby TBird » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:43 pm

Admin wrote:Not that any of that is untrue, but I don't believe it's the reason behind the differing values.

For males to have any significant breeding value, then it has to have won a graded stakes (preferably a G1) and have a decent pedigree and conformation. In general, it has to have these things for a stud farm to buy or want to stand the stallion prospect (based on the marketability of the stallion to broodmare owners).

With a female, it only takes one owner to think she's worth enough to be bred.

There were about 45,000 mares bred in 2013 -- to only a few hundred stallions (not counting backyard single offspring type stallions). It's a numbers thing.



If you're talking about Thoroughbred mares, that number was actually 34,000. https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... ine-in-rmb
TBird
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:09 am

Re: question re: vertigineux

Postby halo » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:08 pm

mimi6920 wrote:I agree with a lot of what is being said, but I think there is a lot more mystery than you guys are suggesting. For example, Maclean's Music had one career start, and sure his Beyer was high for that start, but a lot of horses achieve brilliance one time and are never heard from again. Despite this, he found a farm to stand him at stud, and from what I hear, he generally got a nice book of mares.

Wilburn won a grade two race and a few allowance races. Furthermore the horses he beat were not world beaters even though he did win a grade two. Yet somehow off to stud he went where he bred almost 170 mares in each year he has been at stud.

Elusive Quality won two grade three races as a five year old. The rest of his victories were all allowance races. Freud was sent to stud on pedigree alone (full brother to Giant's Causeway). In twelve starts, he won one race, the Special Maiden Empire Stakes.

I guess what I am saying is, on pedigree alone Souper could possibly have stood at stud especially in a market like New York. In most cases, the best sires are those who come from a strong female family, and he came from a great one.


Just because Maclean's Music has gotten a good book of mares, it doesnt guarantee he will make it as a stallion. One start going 3/4 of a mile usually does not a stallion make. He may be the exception to the rule, but it will be a big exception.

Wilburn was a very high priced 2 year old. He also beat Shack and Calebs Posse in the Indiana Derby, which they may not be world beaters, but they were certainly near the head of their class. He also was the favorite in the BC Mile, which was his last race. They were pulling teeth to get mares to War Front; his small crops attest to that. Elusive Quality only had 2 grade 3's, but he was a world record holder at a mile. Freud...well, had he not been in a state bred program, his numbers wouldnt be nearly as impressive. Most of his stakes winners are restricted.

So no, theres really no rhyme or reason to what stallions will hit, but a horse has to have SOMETHING to offer, other than being a half brother to a good mare who has yet to produce a winner.
halo
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:25 pm

Previous

Return to Breeding & Sales

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Summer Bird and 7 guests