Louisiana Derby (G2) - 03/24/18

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Sparrow Castle
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Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:51 pm

Tom Ryan @TomRyanKY
10m10 minutes ago
A remarkable first crop for TAKE CHARGE INDY, 6 stakes winners with probable Oaks & Derby starters. Forward Gal: Take Charge Paula, Louisiana Derby: Noble Indy.. I'll be the first to admit I underestimated him. I pushed hard to sell him, now he's making me regret it. #MurphysLaw
BaroqueAgain1
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Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:28 pm

OK, Tom, now maybe push just as hard to bring him back? :roll:
Izvestia
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Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:47 pm

That’s why sales aren’t the best predictor for a good stallion.
stark
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:55 am

95 BSF
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:22 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:OK, Tom, now maybe push just as hard to bring him back? :roll:
Take Charge Indy is the current leading 2nd crop sire by a wide margin. This could, of course, change as the year rolls on, but for now TCI has a remarkable 21 winners from 52 starters, 4 stakes winners (2 on the colt and filly classics trails), and over $1.5 million earned. TCI is by the proven sire of sires, A.P. Indy and out of an exceptional broodmare. If they don't try everything possible to bring him back, they are stupid.
Catalina
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:25 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:OK, Tom, now maybe push just as hard to bring him back? :roll:
Take Charge Indy is the current leading 2nd crop sire by a wide margin. This could, of course, change as the year rolls on, but for now TCI has a remarkable 21 winners from 52 starters, 4 stakes winners (2 on the colt and filly classics trails), and over $1.5 million earned. TCI is by the proven sire of sires, A.P. Indy and out of an exceptional broodmare. If they don't try everything possible to bring him back, they are stupid.
He'll now cost a great deal more than they got when the sold him, so I figure they'll probably opt for being stupid.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:01 pm

Catalina wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:OK, Tom, now maybe push just as hard to bring him back? :roll:
Take Charge Indy is the current leading 2nd crop sire by a wide margin. This could, of course, change as the year rolls on, but for now TCI has a remarkable 21 winners from 52 starters, 4 stakes winners (2 on the colt and filly classics trails), and over $1.5 million earned. TCI is by the proven sire of sires, A.P. Indy and out of an exceptional broodmare. If they don't try everything possible to bring him back, they are stupid.
He'll now cost a great deal more than they got when the sold him, so I figure they'll probably opt for being stupid.
Which would be unfortunate since TCI's first crop suggests he could be an elite stallion with the potential to earn many millions more than the cost to bring him home.
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Private Thoughts
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:12 pm

Many of these farms don't have any patience with young stallions and want a quick buck, only to regret it later. I hope they bring him back home, but like others said it will cost more money, but that is the price you pay for jumping the gun on him. Perhaps another Kentucky breeding farm will try and snag him.
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:13 pm

South Korea has been buying US stallions since at least 2002 when Distilled and Buster's Daydream were exported, followed by Yankee Victor (2005), Menifee (2006), Forest Camp and Pico Central in 2007, and Peace Rules (2009)
The KRA really got serious by 2010, when it bought Officer (2010), Whywhywhy (2011), then Chapel Royal and Rock Hard Ten (2012). They were followed by Hansen (2013), Any Given Saturday and Tiz Wonderful (2014), Bob and John, Musket Man, Colonel John and Take Charge Indy (2016), and most recently by Archarcharch, Girolamo and Tizway (2017).
I may have missed some but, dang, that's already a long list. :(
The sad thing is that it's like these stallions have dropped into a black hole. I presume Korea's been breeding those stallions, but where are the offspring? Are they being bred to mares of any quality? Are they racing anywhere?
When stallions are exported to places like England, France, Ireland or Japan, you know they are headed to established breeding operations with good broodmares. We will see their foals race or show up at sales.
I feel like the above stallions are being used to TRY to create some decent TB stock in Korea, an experiment that might be a worthwhile goal for the country's apparently-fledgling racing industry, but...
Without being supported by the class of mares they would get in Kentucky or other established racing countries, those exported stallions may never have any more high quality offspring. It's a shame that there could be no more Selcourts or Rayyas (Tiz Wonderful) or Noble Indys or Take Charge Paulas (Take Charge Indy). :roll: :evil:
Catalina
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:41 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Catalina wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Take Charge Indy is the current leading 2nd crop sire by a wide margin. This could, of course, change as the year rolls on, but for now TCI has a remarkable 21 winners from 52 starters, 4 stakes winners (2 on the colt and filly classics trails), and over $1.5 million earned. TCI is by the proven sire of sires, A.P. Indy and out of an exceptional broodmare. If they don't try everything possible to bring him back, they are stupid.
He'll now cost a great deal more than they got when the sold him, so I figure they'll probably opt for being stupid.
Which would be unfortunate since TCI's first crop suggests he could be an elite stallion with the potential to earn many millions more than the cost to bring him home.
Oh, I agree. But whoever wants to pursue it will need VERY deep pockets. That is assuming South Korea is willing to sell.
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Northport
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:38 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:South Korea has been buying US stallions since at least 2002 when Distilled and Buster's Daydream were exported, followed by Yankee Victor (2005), Menifee (2006), Forest Camp and Pico Central in 2007, and Peace Rules (2009)
The KRA really got serious by 2010, when it bought Officer (2010), Whywhywhy (2011), then Chapel Royal and Rock Hard Ten (2012). They were followed by Hansen (2013), Any Given Saturday and Tiz Wonderful (2014), Bob and John, Musket Man, Colonel John and Take Charge Indy (2016), and most recently by Archarcharch, Girolamo and Tizway (2017).
I may have missed some but, dang, that's already a long list. :(
The sad thing is that it's like these stallions have dropped into a black hole. I presume Korea's been breeding those stallions, but where are the offspring? Are they being bred to mares of any quality? Are they racing anywhere?
When stallions are exported to places like England, France, Ireland or Japan, you know they are headed to established breeding operations with good broodmares. We will see their foals race or show up at sales.
I feel like the above stallions are being used to TRY to create some decent TB stock in Korea, an experiment that might be a worthwhile goal for the country's apparently-fledgling racing industry, but...
Without being supported by the class of mares they would get in Kentucky or other established racing countries, those exported stallions may never have any more high quality offspring. It's a shame that there could be no more Selcourts or Rayyas (Tiz Wonderful) or Noble Indys or Take Charge Paulas (Take Charge Indy). :roll: :evil:
Here is a helpful link about Korean Racing. It's not the black hole one might think, and it's actually one of the only countries in the world where horse racing is actually on the rise and increasing in popularity. I personally don't follow Korean racing (North American, European, Australian, Japanese, Emirati, and Jumps Racing takes up enough time as it is :lol:) But they are trying to be more competitive internationally.
http://www.skyracingworld.com/racing/so ... rse-racing

I believe they restrict how many yearlings/horses in training can be imported each year, so most are Korean bred. But they are trying to establish a presence on the world stage with their Korea Autumn Racing Carnival

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/thor ... up-sprint/
weeeeeeeee
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:09 pm

I understand that interest in horse racing is increasing in Korea, and I respect their desire to build a healthy, home-grown breeding program. It's nice to see racing grow in popularity anywhere.
However, that doesn't change the fact that the stallions who were sent there are now pretty much lost to the rest of the breed. Unless you think there are breeders who are shipping their good mares to South Korea, their genetic legacies are going into Korean mares...and not to mares who might provide Kentucky Derby or Oaks-winning foals.
Maybe that will change in a few generations, but for right now I'll stay with my metaphor of 'black hole.' :(
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Sparrow Castle
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:26 pm

The Koreans buy good mares here too, even if some are fairly cheap by the time they're sold. They bought Gilded Gold last November for $15k. I remember looking at her page at the time and wondering why she was so cheap. She's produced three winners from four runners including the stakes winner Thieves Guild. Thieves Guild by Medaglia d'Oro brought $310,000 while in foal to Speightstown at the 2016 Keeneland November sale.

Machmer Hall bought Gilded Gold's 2017 yearling by Distorted Humor for over $100k at FT winter mixed sale in Feb, top price for a yearling. I only remember that because Carrie said after the sale that she bought the filly because her husband said "no" but he wasn't there to stop her, lol.

I think KOID is looking for the same home run as every other breeder around the world, wants to play internationally, and are investing in the best that's available to them. I won't begrudge them that.
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Curtis
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:42 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:South Korea has been buying US stallions since at least 2002 when Distilled and Buster's Daydream were exported, followed by Yankee Victor (2005), Menifee (2006), Forest Camp and Pico Central in 2007, and Peace Rules (2009)
The KRA really got serious by 2010, when it bought Officer (2010), Whywhywhy (2011), then Chapel Royal and Rock Hard Ten (2012). They were followed by Hansen (2013), Any Given Saturday and Tiz Wonderful (2014), Bob and John, Musket Man, Colonel John and Take Charge Indy (2016), and most recently by Archarcharch, Girolamo and Tizway (2017).
I may have missed some but, dang, that's already a long list. :(
The sad thing is that it's like these stallions have dropped into a black hole. I presume Korea's been breeding those stallions, but where are the offspring? Are they being bred to mares of any quality? Are they racing anywhere?
When stallions are exported to places like England, France, Ireland or Japan, you know they are headed to established breeding operations with good broodmares. We will see their foals race or show up at sales.
I feel like the above stallions are being used to TRY to create some decent TB stock in Korea, an experiment that might be a worthwhile goal for the country's apparently-fledgling racing industry, but...
Without being supported by the class of mares they would get in Kentucky or other established racing countries, those exported stallions may never have any more high quality offspring. It's a shame that there could be no more Selcourts or Rayyas (Tiz Wonderful) or Noble Indys or Take Charge Paulas (Take Charge Indy). :roll: :evil:
Just because you don't follow Korean racing, does it mean the stallions have dropped into a black hole. Of course they are being bred or at least they were when first exported. In the early '70's Japanese interests bought Typecast who was coming off of an Eclipse award winning season. The fear was she would be bred to obscure stallions in Japan, and she was, after first being bred to Sir Ivor. She was prospectively a valuable mare and it was a shame to lose her, but the Japanese wanted to boost their breeding program and they had to be proactive to do that. Fast forward several years and people were lamenting Sunday Silence's exportation, not initially but with 20/20 hindsight. Now you're listing Japan as a country with an established breeding program. Maybe in 40 years or so South Korea will make that list.
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:00 pm

I never said that they weren't being bred; I surmised that they were being bred to Korean mares. And Korea may very well be the next Japan; they've certainly imported enough top-class stallions to work toward that.
But...IMHO it still means that the stallions I listed aren't going to be providing the breeding industry outside of Korea with their genetics. Not until we start seeing their yearlings show up at sales anywhere else.
I still feel unhappy about the sales of many of those stallions. It's partly the fan in me for racehorses like Rock Hard Ten, partly the admiration for Tiznow and his line, and partly the 'what were you thinking!?' about the sales of stallions like TCI before their offspring really had the chance to show how good they were on the track.
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Northport
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:43 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:The Koreans buy good mares here too, even if some are fairly cheap by the time they're sold. They bought Gilded Gold last November for $15k. I remember looking at her page at the time and wondering why she was so cheap. She's produced three winners from four runners including the stakes winner Thieves Guild. Thieves Guild by Medaglia d'Oro brought $310,000 while in foal to Speightstown at the 2016 Keeneland November sale.

Machmer Hall bought Gilded Gold's 2017 yearling by Distorted Humor for over $100k at FT winter mixed sale in Feb, top price for a yearling. I only remember that because Carrie said after the sale that she bought the filly because her husband said "no" but he wasn't there to stop her, lol.

I think KOID is looking for the same home run as every other breeder around the world, wants to play internationally, and are investing in the best that's available to them. I won't begrudge them that.
They bought Worldly Pleasure (the dam of Game On Dude) for $15k when GOD was a two year old. A few years later they sold her to Shadai for heavens knows how much. I'd imagine that they aren't slouches when it comes to finding nice horses, we just don't hear about it here. Just because the international breeding industry doesn't have access to their stallions (by their own choice), I still think black hole is a bit much. It took several generations of world class purchases and crosses before Coolmore, Flaxman, Qatar Racing, WinStar, started sending mares to and buying yearlings by Japan's magnum opus, Deep Impact. It also took several generations before we got international stars like Orfevre, Gentildonna, Maurice, Lord Kanaloa.

This article kind of sums it up at the end

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/b ... ope/324122

Korea doesn't have a family like the Yoshidas and cash cows like Northern Taste and Sunday Silence, but I wouldn't make it sound like horses who are sold there are lost causes and will never impact the breed ever again.
weeeeeeeee
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Sparrow Castle
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:26 pm

Good points, Northport. I'm sure there are other examples too, but my aging brain could quickly summon up only the most recent one, from just last month, lol.

BaroqueAgain1, I'm not trying to minimize how you feel. It still makes me sad that one of my favorite horses, Lion Heart, was sold to Turkey. But he's left us a number of good offspring here that hopefully will carry on. The same for Take Charge Indy. And I do agree with you that most farms breed to sell and plan on recouping their investments in something like five years. If breeders don't book and babies don't sell high, they are not going to wait past that three to four year slump to see how those early ones fare on the track, especially not the non-precocious ones. The good ones come off the track fast and furious and farms only have so much room. Just a fact of business, hard on the fans though.
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Treve
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:48 am

TCI was sold with some kind of clause that meant WinStar could get him back should his offspring prove to be very successful.
Nonetheless, they should've arranged to lease him instead.
I for one, don't currently know much about Korean racing but I am excited about it and excited for it. It is trying hard and fast to emerge globally and promote thoroughbred racing. What's more, is that the majority of their racing is done on dirt which explains their interest in American stallions as opposed to their Japanese neighbours.
It would also be worth noting that WinStar has been partnering with Chinese and Korean investors on a lot of their current horses. I would not be surprised if they, at some point, began sending mares to US stallions imported to Korea. The future is filled with possibility.
Don't despair ;)
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Ridan_Remembered
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:00 am

I'm more concerned about losing one of the last top stallions by A.P. Indy to a, shall we say distant breeding program than I am any of the other considerations mentioned above. TCI is unique in that he has two different Secretariat mares top and bottom -- Weekend Surprise and Sister Dot. This, to me, makes him particularly important.

I understand that everybody has to make a buck to stay in business, but...but it would take too long to explain my dismay at losing a stallion like TCI. And yes, it is a loss to American breeding no matter how much sugar-coating is done about the Korean program. I have to get ready for work. Sigh. :cry:
Izvestia
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:44 am

I think what was most aggravating about them selling TCI (before his offspring actually entered starting gates) is that they were going by his sales popularity, and presumably by their physicals. They jumped the gun a bit there.
I mean, it’s great to have great-looking babies, but in the end - they are racehorses, and can they run? This reflects poorly on their business model.
He could be a very important sire because of his different breeding.
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