The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Somnambulist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:06 pm

Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby WarBiscuit » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:54 pm

Somnambulist wrote:Maybe the government should make adopting animals from after-care semi-tax deductible. I'd love to own a horse but I'd be able to afford a horse and do nothing else, especially in this area where boarding is the equivalent of a mortgage payment. A horse is an extremely expensive thing to own and the affluent aren't always interested in owning them. How many horses who go to after care actually find a home?

I've long thought there should be a cap on the amount of thoroughbred allowed to be bred yearly. But we need anything resembling national governance to do that.


I am in complete agreement with your thoughts and ideas here.

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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Sparrow Castle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:24 pm

A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen parents get horses for their youngsters and, when those kids grow up and lose interest, it's off to the auction for the horses. These aren't bad people otherwise, some started out by buying the horse from auction and don't see that as a problem.

I have less tolerance for the parents who replace the original horse with a more expensive purchased one because they have (often unrealistic) dreams that their children will succeed at high levels of whichever horse sport they've chosen if they had a better horse, and their kids deserve the best. The auction horse just isn't good enough anymore so back to auction he/she goes, older and with maybe fewer chances to get a forever home. And that new shiny horse may end up there as well.

When we consider homes for our thoroughbreds off the track who can't be placed with track people or former owners, we look for youngish adults, past the horse-crazy-until-puberty stage and out of college, who have the means to support a horse, and want one or two horses for hobby (riding, show, or otherwise). There's still a risk a change in circumstance puts the horse in a bad situation though, and we make efforts to keep in touch with them. We've had success with this type of home, but there aren't enough of them for all horses who need homes. Perhaps tax deductions would open up more of the those.

It's easy to be anti-slaughter when the whole process of it is so cruel and inhumane. I'm actually not sure how I'd feel about it if it were done with the utmost attention paid to the comfort of the horse. I just may be sad but understanding about it. Like dogs and cats and other animals, there are just too many horses born every year to place all of them successfully in forever homes.

I don't know what to do about the over-breeding problem, which I agree is a problem. We've had some nicely bred mares but never saw that as an option for them simply because we didn't want the responsibility of following resultant foals from birth to grave (we had one who was claimed by Machmer Hall to be a broodmare and felt okay about that because they have more money than we do and are deeply involved in aftercare). I agree that only national governance could tackle that problem.

We support the efforts of Fox Hill here and other industry-driven initiatives, contribute to retirement organizations, and sometimes participate in efforts to save one horse at a time. I have no solutions beyond that.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Ballerina » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:05 pm

Slaughter will never be humane. It costs too much money. The slaughter industry was/is owned by foreign companies. The goal is to make money and be damned to caring about the suffering of an animal. Take into consideration the number of horses stolen only to be sold by the thief to slaughter. Take into consideration the meat tainted with drugs and chemicals that make it unfit for consumption. Take into consideration the land that is polluted with horse remain waster from a slaughter house. It is a gruesome industry and should never return to the USA. Congress has been twiddling its thumbs for well over a decade on this issue. Pass the SAFE Act. Do away with slaughter in the USA and make it illegal to transport horses outside of USA borders for the purpose of slaughter. In time, with no $$$ outlet to go to, those in the business of indiscriminate breeding or acquiring horses that don't live up to expectation will desist in owning horses they can't take care of properly. It's just one of the many national disgraces when it comes to how animals are treated.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Catalina » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:13 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.



amen to what you said.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Somnambulist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:48 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:A tax deduction would help but it's still a huge commitment to carry the expenses of horse ownership over the lifespan of the horse, and they're a lot of work to keep healthy and happy.


Agreed. It's no different than a child, a husband, or a dog, or anything else. I don't think most people think of that when you ask for a horse you get a horse. Not just the fun parts but all of it - good and bad. At my current life stage if I was able to declare married and claim the horse as a dependent that'd be stellar. I'd drag my man to town hall right now and get hitched if that was the case.

I also think what FHF is doing is great. If anything like this opens up in NY I'd really love to get involved in it.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Catalina » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:51 pm

A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with a better solution.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Somnambulist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Catalina wrote:A tax deduction wouldn't fix the problem, but it might buy us a very few years breathing space for coming up with better solution.


It's really just a pipe dream that I'm running with since people are entertaining me.

I'm so defeatist. I don't see how anything other than uniform rule can save this sport.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Katewerk » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:07 pm

Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).


Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Treve » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Falinadin wrote: If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).


Just to tie up the loose ends in the discussion -- in my breed at least, there are three homes waiting for every puppy graded as a pet. Demand far outstrips supply, and most of the people who get pet puppies from "show litters" will have waited a considerable time. It's the show home that's difficult to find, particularly for males.


Not just in your breed, as far as dogs go the pet overpopulation is a myth. The amount of American homes currently looking to adopt dogs exceeds by (if I recall correctly) about 6 times the amount of dogs in shelters AND the amount of dogs produced by backyard breeders, let alone dogs produced by heritage, reputable breeders. This notion is a myth pushed by the Animal Rights lobbies. Adopt don't shop is the marketing gimmick of the century. We should ask ourselves why on Earth there are American and Canadian shelters needing to import dogs from other parts of the country, and now, importing dogs from overseas to fill their shelters? It's a business! (For anyone interested in further reading about this notion here http://www.nathanwinograd.com/the-myth- ... s-edition/ )

As you've previously underlined the people who are generally seeking specific characteristics, and are the kind of people who do research, contact breed clubs and talk to heritage breeders are not the same type of people who are willing or able to get a dog from a shelter (some might look at ethical breed rescue networks, but again this depends on the individuals. A family with younger children might not want to take the gamble of adopting a dog with certain behavioural issues) - but as a matter of fact a lot of ethical dog breeders are actively involved in rescue and this crosses over to there more engaged pet owners. I've got one rescue (a real one... not one I bought from a shelter, but a dog I found skin and bones and dehydrated behind a gas station) and a well bred dog from an ethical reputable breeder. I'd venture to say this is even truer for horses - while some people might be flexible on the horse they're looking to buy in general riding homes have a pretty specific idea of what they want to do, and so they'll find a horse suitable for that task. Some horses might be interchangeable but I don't think the parents picking up a grade shetland pony for their 8 year old were ever going to buy the flighty, previously abused flighty 3yo arabian in need of rehab.

I can't say for sure how that translates to horses and livestock in terms of overproduction of horses and animals. The big problem is when you have unforeseen events like the economic crash of 2008. Thousands of expensive, well bred Andalusians and PRE ended up on dinner plates in Spain when the people who previously owned them suddenly couldn't afford them. Same story with the normally 5-6 figure Belgian and Dutch Warmbloods. So even if there theoretically was a home for every horse out there, that situation can shift in the blink of an eye.
But surely there has to be a way to create a safety net for these animals in case of freak occurrences?
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