The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:45 pm

And not just the TB industry. Premarin foals, aged mares, lame QHs, ponies outgrown by young owners...you name it. Thousands of discarded horses of every breed and age end up at slaughter.
This is a problem that involves every horse/pony owner in the country.
What do we do with all the unwanted horses? How can we find a humane solution for all of them, when we can't even get the TB racing industry to get its act together? :(
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby barbaro111 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:52 pm

Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.



amen to what you said.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Katewerk » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:14 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.


amen to what you said.


Along with feral horses. With the numbers involved, demanding the end of slaughter is just handing the keys to those who want the industry destroyed for its own sake -- just as they do when they blame the purebred dog fancy for "shelter dogs", while importing tens of thousands from overseas for the retail "rescue" market.

Ending slaughter won't make them stop.

No one talks about improving slaughter methods to make it more humane, and they should. Better it be done in North America with humane controls in place, than ship them to some ****hole country. I'm not talking about TB specifically here, or excusing those who grind them up without regard for the animal, but of the wider problem of what to do with horses who have no purpose, and no home.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Falinadin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:32 pm

This is a thought I've had.

With basically every other animal species in the U.S., there is an overpopulation "outlet". Dogs and cats that nobody wants end up at shelters, most of which eventually euthanize unwanted animals and are government sponsored. Tens of thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized every year. Rabbits, guinea pigs, etc are often accepted at these shelters are well.
Livestock (cattle, sheep, goats, pigs) have auctions and slaughter. Some shelters are capable of taking a few, but the majority of unwanted livestock goes to auction and slaughter.

What about horses? In the past horses were like livestock and went to auction and slaughter. Then that became unfavorable. But we don't have thousands of government funded shelters capable of taking unwanted horses and euthanizing ones that don't get adopted. There is no place for unwanted horses to go now that slaughter has been outlawed.

I find it frustrating when people blame the horse racing industry, AQHA, etc for not doing more... when nobody else has ever found a solution for any animal. Every animal production system we have (dog showing, dairy industry, wool, etc) is able to produce animals because of their "outlets". Purebred dogs get sold to families, taking the place of a shelter dog that ends up euthanized. What would these industries look like if sheep and cattle couldn't go to slaughter, and dogs couldnt be euthanized by the thousands? My guess is they'd start to fall apart.

I absolutely applaud the efforts of people advocating for TB aftercare, I used to own an OTTB myself. I will be thrilled if a day comes when there are no homeless or slaughtered horses. I just... don't know how anyone expects the TB industry to find a solution for something that nobody else has managed to fix.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Katewerk » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:38 am

Falinadin wrote:Purebred dogs get sold to families, taking the place of a shelter dog that ends up euthanized. What would these industries look like if sheep and cattle couldn't go to slaughter, and dogs couldnt be euthanized by the thousands? My guess is they'd start to fall apart.


That's not how it works, though. Animal ownership isn't a zero sum game. The sentence makes as much sense as "Thoroughbreds get sold to racing ownerships, taking the place of a mustang that ends up euthanized."

The family that wants a 10lb non-shedding Bichon Frise isn't going to turn to a 35 lb pit bull from a shelter. It doesn't suit their needs or their lifestyle. It sheds, it's too big, and the genetics harbour lower thresholds for dog aggression and reduced bite inhibition.

They'll go dogless, and the pit bull still gets euthanized.

The breeder perpetuating the heritage or working breed isn't responsible for thousands of abandoned pit bulls. Those will be bred with or without us. But the animal rights lobby will use them as leverage, not because they want to save shelter animals or stop slaughter, but because they want the end of companion/working animals altogether.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 am

As long as there is a population of horses for whom there ARE no homes, whether due to age, illness or lameness, there needs to be a humane way to end their lives. Some method that is painless, doesn't create fear and panic in the horses, and that doesn't shove them into crowded trailers for a long, difficult trip to a slaughterhouse.
I'm not opposed to horses being harvested for meat, since it makes a Circle-Of-Life sort of sense to me, if it could be done humanely. As I understand it, if a horse is euthanized using drugs, that makes their meat unsuitable for consumption.
If the US could set up a network of slaughterhouses that are modern and humane, with a painless (or as painless as possible), mechanical way to instantly kill a horse, that meat could supply anything from zoos to food banks.
But that would be expensive and I'm pretty sure that whoever is presently in the business of slaughter wants to keep it as cheap as possible, no matter how awful it is for the horses. :evil:
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Falinadin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:53 am

Katewerk wrote:That's not how it works, though. Animal ownership isn't a zero sum game. The sentence makes as much sense as "Thoroughbreds get sold to racing ownerships, taking the place of a mustang that ends up euthanized."


That's true, at least at that stage in a horse's life. After their racing career is over though, and they are going to be trail/pleasure/etc horses, then yes adopting an OTTB may take the place of a mustang. (Funny enough I was in the market for a mustang when the OTTB I bought came along!)

I think your points are completely valid, and they show that there are even fewer homes for animals then there would seem to be. I'm not trying to bash dog or livestock breeding, as I breed dairy goats myself. My goats that aren't show quality sometimes go to be pets. And I fully acknowledge that there are lots of goats that go to slaughter who maybe could have had a pet home. But thats how the industry stays sustainable. If slaughtering goats were suddenly made illegal, all the pet homes would fill up extremely quickly, I wouldnt be able to even give away any goats, and I'd have to stop breeding because I can't keep 50 of them. The good quality goats would still have some demand, but they're not all born the same (I'm guessing not all pups in a litter are show quality, I've never shown dogs).

Anyway, the tl;dr is that I feel bad that the TB industry is getting so much focus when they've been put between a rock and a hard place. I don't know the answer.
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Treve » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:08 am

Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.


A balanced perspective would show that while the industry has dragged its feet about this issue, not all people who are involved in racing are callous, heartless money-mongers who view horses as machines to be discarded when no longer of use. A balanced perspective would look at what is being done, from the people on the frontline going to auctions and trying to outbid killbuyers, to people like Foxhill creating a whole new organisation whose goal is not only to act as a watch dog but provide advice and organisation to those individuals on the frontlines to help horses. And even if they didn't go so far as to examine those individuals and stories, a balanced perspective would offer solutions and suggestions as to what can be done, even whilst demanding accountability.
That is what I am talking about. I am certainly not saying there is an upside or balanced perspective to slaughter - but there are multiple narratives they can choose, and the one which would be a disservice to the horses, would be the narrative stating that racing should be banned altogether and that that would be a solution. (I can tell you it wouldn't.)
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Sparrow Castle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:52 pm

ntwo.org
2 hrs ·
We will be welcoming our first three "unofficial" horses to our program this weekend! Our fabulous Louisiana rep Emily Guiza was contacted about three racehorses who need homes. We decided that even if we haven't officially started operations, we can certainly take in these three. They are to ship out on Sunday, and our wonderful Carrie Brogden will be accepting them at her Machmer Hall farm. We will anxiously await the arrival of Fuhr Father (2014 g by Forefathers out of Aleja Grand, by Langfuhr) from trainer Chad Maturin and owner Jerald Maturin, and Dynamic Decision (2011 g by Dixie Union out of Risk, by Wavering Monarch) and Czarmo (2013 g by Uncle Mo out of American Czarina, by Quiet American) from owner Steve Seeber. The following are photos we have of two, we'll post the third if we get it before they arrive. We'll post new pictures and details likely on Monday. Welcome, boys!

Czarmo
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Fuhr Father
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Re: The greatness of a nation and its moral progress

Postby Ballerina » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:35 pm

barbaro111 wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
Treve wrote:I hope CBS will provide a balanced perspective... but I doubt it. Wonder if NTWO can reach out to them, or possibly another Network like NBC?
There is no "balanced" perspective. The slaughter issue is exactly what it is. And the industry has dragged its feet and swept it under the table for far far too long. And too many still want to take the easy way out by dumping them.

No one talks about the broodmares, barren, pregnant and babies by their sides who end up in the slaughter pipeline-which is utterly appalling. Slaughter is a cancer on the entire industry.



amen to what you said.


another amen here.
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