Derby Point Races 2018

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thinair
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Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 pm

Well, I'm glad that's been cleared up.
stark
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:50 pm

BigDonOKC wrote: the point I was making was the derby has changed it use to pay big and the only reason it paid like it did last year was they moved the gates out.
I know I've seen some turf races where they announce that the rails are out 20ft or 30ft for example. Is that what they did with the Churchill gates last year? That's probably why the exacta was inside numbers 5/1, right?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
BigDonOKC
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:06 pm

thinair wrote:Well, I'm glad that's been cleared up.

3/1/2018 race is 20 point at Kempton and 3/2/2018 20 point race at Dundalk are the next point races which are a wast of time. These horses will not be in the derby. The reason is simple point, time and location.

The next real point race is 3/3/2018 a 50 point race at gulfstream park Fountain of youth. :P :P
BigDonOKC
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:12 pm

stark wrote:
BigDonOKC wrote: the point I was making was the derby has changed it use to pay big and the only reason it paid like it did last year was they moved the gates out.
I know I've seen some turf races where they announce that the rails are out 20ft or 30ft for example. Is that what they did with the Churchill gates last year? That's probably why the exacta was inside numbers 5/1, right?

In 40 years the gate had set on the rail which killed the 1 and 2 gate--- but for some reason they moved the gate out away from the rail out but did not show it till the horses were going in the gate. on grass they move the rail out due to rain in the derby for the first time they moved the gate out this one factor cost a lot of people money.
stark
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:35 pm

BigDonOKC wrote: 3/1/2018 race is 20 point at Kempton and 3/2/2018 20 point race at Dundalk are the next point races which are a wast of time. These horses will not be in the derby. The reason is simple point, time and location.
How many points do you think will be required to make into the starting gate on Cinco de Mayo?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
BigDonOKC
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:47 pm

stark wrote:
BigDonOKC wrote: 3/1/2018 race is 20 point at Kempton and 3/2/2018 20 point race at Dundalk are the next point races which are a wast of time. These horses will not be in the derby. The reason is simple point, time and location.
How many points do you think will be required to make into the starting gate on Cinco de Mayo?


40
may be 30 to be in top 20 on the list it was better when money was what it took
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Treve
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:34 pm

BigDonOKC wrote:
stark wrote:
BigDonOKC wrote: 3/1/2018 race is 20 point at Kempton and 3/2/2018 20 point race at Dundalk are the next point races which are a wast of time. These horses will not be in the derby. The reason is simple point, time and location.
How many points do you think will be required to make into the starting gate on Cinco de Mayo?


40
may be 30 to be in top 20 on the list it was better when money was what it took
2017 saw 3 horses in the gates with less than 40 points. One of them (Lookin At Lee) had 32 and finished in the exacta. The other two had 34 (Untrapped) and 30 (Sonneteer).
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
stark
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:24 pm

I'm guessing he's not a fan of the point system.....

Trainer Keith Desormeaux said Monday night that his challenge now is to find the best route to the Kentucky Derby Presented by Woodford Reserve (G1) for My Boy Jack, who is owned by Don't Tell My Wife Stables (Kirk Godbey and Rob Slack) and Monomoy Stables (Sol Kumin).

My Boy Jack has 12 Kentucky Derby qualifying points, including 10 for his Southwest victory, to rank 13th on the Road to the Kentucky Derby leaderboard. Where the son of Creative Cause will attempt to increase his total next is up in the air, Desormeaux said.

"What it does to me, it kind of puts me in a tight spot because as a trainer, my first instinct, off of this race, and the body of work that this horse has—he's had plenty of starts, he's dead fit—I would totally just give him one more start before the Derby," Desormeaux said. "But, because of this point system, I have to think about a fallback plan."
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Curtis
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:09 pm

stark wrote:I'm guessing he's not a fan of the point system.....
Nor am I. I'd take all restrictions away and just let whoever wants to run, enter. On either Oaks Day or Derby Day, schedule a 9f 400-500k race for three-year-olds. That should make some connections in whose heart of hearts know they have little chance in the big race, come to their senses and go after a more obtainable spot. If you still have more than twenty clamoring to go in the Derby, split the race. The Earth won't come off its' axis. Besides, how bad can a second rendition of My Old Kentucky Home, being sung by 150k after having one too many mint julep, be?
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Northport
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Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:54 pm

I like the point system. And sorry, but splitting any country's preeminent classic race, let alone the KY Derby, because too many hammerheads with a three year old colt who ran 7th in the Remsen want an owner's box on the big day, is just... silly. It's literally called, "The most exciting two minutes in sports" for a reason.

If you think connections like Ramsey, Paolucci, etc. are going to listen to their "heart of hearts" on Derby day and not run their no hopers? Ramsey lives to win the Derby and Paolucci tries to enter maidens in Breeder's Cup races.

While we're at it, let's just let all 40 start in one race, over the National Course at Aintree... only 10 will cross the line with their jockeys :lol:
weeeeeeeee
stark
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:50 am

How about a committee without bias to make it an Invitational?

Something like John Asher, Andy Serling and Jay Privman.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
sweettalk
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:09 am

i honestly liked the graded stakes earnings qualifier, didn't see an issue with it. whichever way they do it, the bottom 5 - 7 earners are gonna be horses that ran in the money/points just well enough to squeak in and will have no impact* other than to hinder the legit contenders *shrug*

*-a blanket statement, if anyone knows of a horse that barely made it in and made a fantastic run, do chime in. i love stats like that =)
middleground
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:27 am

stark wrote:How about a committee without bias to make it an Invitational?

Something like John Asher, Andy Serling and Jay Privman.
First 12 horses chosen on some objective criteria, and then the select committee can, if they so desire, choose up to 6 more horses.

Although the Aintree option does sounds a lot more exciting...
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Treve
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Bring back the old timey heat races :lol:
top 10 finishers get to run in the next heat, bottom 10 have to yield their spots to all the AE horses. :lol:
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Treve
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:08 pm

sweettalk wrote:i honestly liked the graded stakes earnings qualifier, didn't see an issue with it. whichever way they do it, the bottom 5 - 7 earners are gonna be horses that ran in the money/points just well enough to squeak in and will have no impact* other than to hinder the legit contenders *shrug*

*-a blanket statement, if anyone knows of a horse that barely made it in and made a fantastic run, do chime in. i love stats like that =)
Unfortunately it seems like no one bothered to compile the qualifying stakes earnings for the contenders of past KDs. But I think it speaks volumes that Fusaichi Pegasus in 2000 was the first betting favourite to win since Spectacular Bid in 1979. Also even just looking back to last decade there were some compared to now pretty fantastic payouts. Monarchos paid 23$ to win, War Emblem paid 43$ to win. Funny Cide? 27$ to win. Animal Kingdom, 43$. IHA 32$. Famously, Giacomo - 102$ to win...and Mine That Bird 103$ win... I believe he might count as one who barely made it in and ran well :)

Fast forward to the points era - there hasn't been a winner that paid over 15$ to win, and the highest payout was 12.80$ on Orb. It's also been now 5 years in a row that the betting favourite has won which hasn't happened since the 1800s. It's a combo of factors I'm sure but interesting nonetheless.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Curtis
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:47 pm

Northport wrote:I like the point system. And sorry, but splitting any country's preeminent classic race, let alone the KY Derby, because too many hammerheads with a three year old colt who ran 7th in the Remsen want an owner's box on the big day, is just... silly. It's literally called, "The most exciting two minutes in sports" for a reason.

If you think connections like Ramsey, Paolucci, etc. are going to listen to their "heart of hearts" on Derby day and not run their no hopers? Ramsey lives to win the Derby and Paolucci tries to enter maidens in Breeder's Cup races.

While we're at it, let's just let all 40 start in one race, over the National Course at Aintree... only 10 will cross the line with their jockeys :lol:
Didn't a maiden win a Breeder's Cup race, just last November? What silly placement that was. The race may be called the Most exciting two minutes in sports (Can I call the Longacres Mile the most exciting approximately minute and a half in sports, and would that make it so?) but that doesn't mean it needs to be limited to once a year as nothing in that trite moniker suggests such. The race ran 100 times without restrictions and was never split once. In 1974, the 100th running, 23 made the gate (the '73 Remsen must have been some race, as it was either split into several divisions or a lot of horses dead heated for 7th) and Kentuckians were horrified at the notion that the race may need to someday be split so the graded earnings restriction was enacted. What they didn't take into account was that many horse people wanted to have the winner of the Centennial Derby in their barn and it was one of the most open, mediocre crops in the last 50 years, thus an anomaly. As an aside once since 1974 has the Derby had more than 20 make the gate, I was there it was chaotic, bonus points if you can name the year and the circumstance. I don't like the point system because it dictates what horse people have to do with their horses. Keith Desormeaux is right. He knows his horse and wants to run once, probably a month from now and then train up to the race, but because of the points system he either has to run twice, in certain races, and risk his horse being over the top or roll the dice, run once, and hope the horse doesn't have a bad trip or stumble and Kent fall off.
aethervox
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:09 pm

Curtis wrote:As an aside once since 1974 has the Derby had more than 20 make the gate, I was there it was chaotic, bonus points if you can name the year and the circumstance.
I know it was in 1981, 22 horses entered, 21 ran; Pleasant Colony won. Not sure what the circumstances were, though.
middleground
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm

aethervox wrote:
Curtis wrote:As an aside once since 1974 has the Derby had more than 20 make the gate, I was there it was chaotic, bonus points if you can name the year and the circumstance.
I know it was in 1981, 22 horses entered, 21 ran; Pleasant Colony won. Not sure what the circumstances were, though.
Wasn't there a court order that allowed more than 20 horses to run? Or was that the another year?
BigDonOKC
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:32 pm

I know they had over 20 one year - an 4 of them belong to ZEDO
BaroqueAgain1
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Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:46 pm

Who is ZEDO? :?
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