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Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:03 pm
by stark
Beyer Speed Ratings.....

Holy Bull 99
Withers 87
Bob Lewis 86

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:48 pm
by bare it all
Not impressed by any of these. Speed breeding in the lot. The Holy Bull winner was the best looking but he is a Pletcher in Florida and I’m always suspect of those, Always Dreaming be damned lol

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:24 pm
by tcw
Agree with others regarding Audible's pedigree with respect to distance, however, on the plus-side he went the 4th quarter in 23 and 4 and closed the final 1/16th in 6 seconds flat, which is very good. His 99 BSF was also by far the best of the 3 races (make that 4 races counting the Swale S.) and it's encouraging that he was able to sit just off of the early pace. He also appeared to switch leads back and forth as he crossed the wire but having just 3 races under his belt, perhaps it can be chalked up to being a bit green. Definitely one to watch going forward.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:44 pm
by BaroqueAgain1
The Withers winner, Avery Island, is by Street Sense out of an A.P. Indy mare. Not sure I would call that 'speed breeding.' :P 8-)

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:14 pm
by BigDonOKC
The 3-3-2018 races for derby point.
Gulfstream Park the Holy BULL RACE 12 outcome was a two-horse race with Audible proving he was the best of the field. Audible past the field at the ¾ pole and cleared them by 51/2. Some people will talk him up and think he could win the derby. IF they think .01.92 over the track record is fast then they could be right after all it was listed as a fast track and no one ran are push him after the ¾ pole. Free Drop Billy ran second and now has 14 points for the derby but did not make my derby list were Audible has made my top 12 list.
Aqueduct race 8 the Withers was a very slow race and the great Firenze Fire let a horse run past him at the wire but he did get 4 points out of the race and set up his pattern for the next 3 races. I say he will win the next race, run second the one after that and then win his 3rd race out but that just if you believe in patterns. Avery Island now has 14 points and a slow time, he still has not made my list.
The last point race was Robert B. Lewis at Santa Anita Race. They say the track was fast the first two call were fast but after that it was very slow. Lombo wired the field but still do to him given up ground he is not on my Derby list.
I like talking horse and at the young age of 71 I have seen more racing than most of people on most of the horse racing foams. You can always learn something if you ask question and I do ask question even at my age I am still learning things. So what it comes down if the people on this site would like to talk horses I am willing to tell the patterns I see in upcoming races.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:20 pm
by middleground
BigDonOKC wrote:The 3-3-2018 races for derby point.
Gulfstream Park the Holy BULL RACE 12 outcome was a two-horse race with Audible proving he was the best of the field. Audible past the field at the ¾ pole and cleared them by 51/2. Some people will talk him up and think he could win the derby. IF they think .01.92 over the track record is fast then they could be right after all it was listed as a fast track and no one ran are push him after the ¾ pole. Free Drop Billy ran second and now has 14 points for the derby but did not make my derby list were Audible has made my top 12 list.
Aqueduct race 8 the Withers was a very slow race and the great Firenze Fire let a horse run past him at the wire but he did get 4 points out of the race and set up his pattern for the next 3 races. I say he will win the next race, run second the one after that and then win his 3rd race out but that just if you believe in patterns. Avery Island now has 14 points and a slow time, he still has not made my list.
The last point race was Robert B. Lewis at Santa Anita Race. They say the track was fast the first two call were fast but after that it was very slow. Lombo wired the field but still do to him given up ground he is not on my Derby list.
I like talking horse and at the young age of 71 I have seen more racing than most of people on most of the horse racing foams. You can always learn something if you ask question and I do ask question even at my age I am still learning things. So what it comes down if the people on this site would like to talk horses I am willing to tell the patterns I see in upcoming races.
Welcome to the board. I look forward to your comments.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:48 am
by bare it all
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:The Withers winner, Avery Island, is by Street Sense out of an A.P. Indy mare. Not sure I would call that 'speed breeding.' :P 8-)
It'll likely prove out incorrect, but I think the Street Sense want about a mile and that's it. Maybe putting him over the AP Indy mare gets you more, but I don't see him as much +stam even if he did win the Derby. Looking at the mare, she didn't race until 3 and then ran 2 winning races before hitting the shed, one of those a 1 1/8 allowance, so maybe she will add something. The sub-90 beyer he got doesn't inspire me nor does his career being only at AQU.

Reminds me of last year's J Boys Echo.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:00 am
by BigDonOKC
you look at Beyer :lol: :lol: :lol: they haven not been worth or work in years. When they give a HORSE a 80 for a mile at the same time as another Horse who get a 90 make for a bad way to look at speed.

I Developed a program that looks at the speed in yards per second at each call out to 1 1/8 mile then it will project the horse in yard per second out to 1 1/4 mile, The average horse runs 18.33 yards per second.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:15 pm
by stark
BigDonOKC wrote:you look at Beyer :lol: :lol: :lol: they haven not been worth or work in years. When they give a HORSE a 80 for a mile at the same time as another Horse who get a 90 make for a bad way to look at speed.

I Developed a program that looks at the speed in yards per second at each call out to 1 1/8 mile then it will project the horse in yard per second out to 1 1/4 mile, The average horse runs 18.33 yards per second.
Don,
Just curious, do you sell your information/picks?
I know sharpies like Ragozin and Thorograph have come up with a different criteria system from Beyer and they are quite successful too.

p.s. Welcome to the forum!

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:37 pm
by BigDonOKC
Stark I do not write a tip sheet, I tell those who e mail me and some time in the past on some site what I am playing just like I am playing them. The Derby speed chart has give me the winner of the derby for several years and the top 4 going 6 deep for a lot of years. The problem on other forms was a lot of people would get upset if my pick was right they never ask why I picked the way I did. Two years ago I posted my Pick for the Derby a $20.00 ex, tri and super when it came in as I called it they said it was caulk does that matter if it is a winner. When people say they can not play a horse because he is caulk so they will play a horse who will pay big. I would say play the winner.
But back to the question I only run the derby speed chart on the derby, and would be more than glad to post it for you.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:04 pm
by stark
BigDonOKC wrote: But back to the question I only run the derby speed chart on the derby, and would be more than glad to post it for you.
There are several here who really focus on the Derby, including "Matt's Derby Dozen" and "Kennedy's Contenders", you'll be a welcome addition, thanks in advance!

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:11 pm
by BigDonOKC
This week end point races for the derby speed was not great most look like they were slow. At Santa Anita race #5 the record is 18.89 Yard Per Second and the average horse in the U>S. runs 18.33 Yard Per Second. Lombo ran this race in 17.81YPS which is very slow for the west coast so he off my list. The race was 1 1/16 mile and Lombo wire the field but was backing up from the STR. To wire not a true derby winner for he gives up ground.
Gulfstream park race #12 was 1 1/16 mile its record time was 18.70 YPS which is slower than Santa Anita YPS. Audible ran it in 18.33 he has never given up ground and closed big time HE is on my derby top 12.
Aqueduct race was 1 1/8 mile and its record is 18.5YPS Avery Island ran this race in 17.8 YPS only.7 yards per second under the track record. he was closing to get there and ran a good race but still has not made my list

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:56 am
by Kennedy
stark wrote:
BigDonOKC wrote: But back to the question I only run the derby speed chart on the derby, and would be more than glad to post it for you.
There are several here who really focus on the Derby, including "Matt's Derby Dozen" and "Kennedy's Contenders", you'll be a welcome addition, thanks in advance!
I've been completely delinquent this year!

I do actually have a top 10 I just haven't gotten around to posting it! Maybe I'll do that just for the heck of it.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:12 am
by Kennedy
Derby Top 10

February 6

1. Bolt D’Oro (1)
2. Audible (new)
3. Good Magic (2)
4. McKinzie (3)
5. Mourinho (4)
6. Principe Guilherme (7)
7. Combatant (8)
8. Mask (9)
9. Tiz Mischief (6)
10. Untamed Domain (10)

On the Radar: Free Drop Billy, Catholic Boy, Instilled Regard, Vinno Rosso, Alkhaatam, Mendelssohn, Firenze Fire, The Tabulator, Hollywood Star, Enticed

Dropped: Enticed (5)


There were 3 preps run the opening weekend of February and I think it’s safe to say that only one of them will have an impact on the run for the roses. The Holy Bull was excellent and the Bob Lewis and Withers were dreadful. Firenze Fire alone remains even a periphery part of my thinking based off his performance. He wasn’t great but he seems like the kind of horse that could hang around the fringes, get forgotten by Derby day and run an under the radar 3rd.

But on to the Holy Bull…I don’t like to overreact to February prep races where a Pletcher trainee dominates a race at Gulfstream but this race was the entire package. He was visually impressive after settling off the pace and he shrugged off Free Drop Billy with authority. His final fraction was about 12 flat which is quite fast and his projected 10f numbers were excellent. Basically it was a great prep any way you want to look at it.

I have Free Drop Billy as the #1 option on my radar which essentially makes him my 11th place horse because from one perspective he ran a great race to bounce back from the BC Juvenile disaster but from another angle this race setup pretty well for him and Audible just crushed him. Despite his own decent closing fractions etc… I wonder if he may not find 10f a bit too far. Perhaps he’s a bit more like Practical Joke where his class keeps him around at two turns but he might be more effective at one turn. Time will tell.

Tiz Mischief remains on my list despite being well beaten because I think this race was never going to go his way tactically and he’ll have better opportunities at other times.

Enticed on the other hand was poor and should have been better. It feels like McLaughlin horses do this a fair bit and I’m no longer a fan of his. Although he’s still better than Avery Island. I’m keeping him on the radar just in case.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:31 am
by Kennedy
BigDonOKC wrote: I Developed a program that looks at the speed in yards per second at each call out to 1 1/8 mile then it will project the horse in yard per second out to 1 1/4 mile, The average horse runs 18.33 yards per second.
Welcome to the board!

I'm interested in learning more about your projection method. It's something I've dabbled in for a while now but I feel like my projection calculation is weak. I basically just rely on Excel to auto calculate the projected 10f time because I couldn't figure out a better way to do it :)

Even with that the value of projected 10f times seems quite clear when you look at Derby winners. Even using my hacky method if you used no other factor to determine a Derby winner you'd have been able to identify 9 winners and 7 other in the money finishers just by taking the top 3 for that stat in the last 19 Derbies.

So how do you actually calculate the projection?

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:48 pm
by bare it all
BigDonOKC wrote:you look at Beyer :lol: :lol: :lol: they haven not been worth or work in years. When they give a HORSE a 80 for a mile at the same time as another Horse who get a 90 make for a bad way to look at speed.

I Developed a program that looks at the speed in yards per second at each call out to 1 1/8 mile then it will project the horse in yard per second out to 1 1/4 mile, The average horse runs 18.33 yards per second.
You focused on a single point of my post and then touted your own formulation for determining performance but offered no discussion on the 3YO in question.

Beyers, for me, are the most readily available and easiest "comparison" you can attempt to make when looking at performance beyond what the eye sees. I don't bet horses, thus have no need for any in-depth extrapolating beyond my own entertainment.

Based on your numbers, what do you call Avery Island and what do you make of his performance? Any sniff at the Derby, all factors considered and I'm assuming your decades of calculations using your own figures to back it up?

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:45 pm
by BigDonOKC
The way I judge speed is yards per second. I don’t take in account the run up as far as distance travel because each track the run up is different and the time starts after the run up and the distance to the wire is correct. I have two system in Excel one average out all the information on the past performs then using system one with no money, and system two with money these system average out the last three races.
Now the speed program average out 3 races at each call from ¼ mile to 1 1/8 mile. Then from 1 mile to 1 1/8 mile then it is added to 1 1/8 to take it out to 1 ¼ mile. You can tell by looking at the chart if a horse is speeding up or slowing down. You can tell if a horse is a closer.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:00 pm
by BigDonOKC
bare did not mean to piss you off, go back a few threads about your.
horse and read what I said.
as for beyers when you have two races at the same distance one get a 85 the other get 90 and you think that is right.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:42 pm
by Starine
Welcome, Don; I'm looking forward to your contributions to the forum.

Also delighted for the return of Kennedy.

Re: Derby Point Races 2018

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:48 pm
by Curtis
BigDonOKC wrote:bare did not mean to piss you off, go back a few threads about your.
horse and read what I said.
as for beyers when you have two races at the same distance one get a 85 the other get 90 and you think that is right.
But why did one horse get an 85 and the other a 90? Are you talking about the same track the same day? I don’t necessarily disagree, but your argument lacks context. One of the best arguments against BSF’s occurred a couple of years ago when Follow Me Crev won a 8.5f AOC in a near identical time to California Chrome’s in the San Pasqual a half-hour later. Crev earned a figure in the 90’s while Chrome was somewhere around 105. That defied logic. Not that the horses were at the same level, in that sense it was accurate but that isn’t what BSF’s in particular are supposed to reflect. The more I follow this sport the more interested I am in how horses run fast as opposed to simply how fast horses run.