TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby stark » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:33 pm

Tessablue wrote:Gun Runner should and definitely will be HOTY this year. Arrogate should have won it last year but... didn't. I feel so terrible for him, he deserves a better historical legacy than this.



Curious.....when it comes to legacies, would you rather have a HOTY trophy on your mantle or $17,000,000 cash in the bank?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Somnambulist » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:38 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:IMO, speculating about drugs (the lack of) somehow being behind Arrogate's non-performance doesn't make a lot of sense. He won the World Cup, and Dubai doesn't even allow race-day Lasix.
There were so many poor performances from very good horses (Mor Spirit, Stellar Wind, Lady Aurelia, Marsha, Drefong, Unique Bella, Lady Eli, Arrogate, etc.) that I have a hard time believing that they all just stopped being good. The only thing they have in common is Del Mar.
The configuration of the tracks, dirt and turf, was tight, with sharp turns and very short stretches. That turf course should never have had fourteen horse fields.
Del Mar is very pretty and it makes for a nice 'boutique' meet, but I hope they never run the BC there again.


Or, maybe they all just didn't fire. Which happens. Additionally, since when has Mor Spirit ever been considered very good?

No track is ever going to be perfect and each one it's run at can and will have it's own problems. I don't know why people are so mad about it. If it's run at SA people aren't happy. If it's run at Churchill people aren't happy. If it's at Belmont people won't be happy. No one was happy it was at Keeneland.

The only constant is racing fans are never happy. We had a great day of racing... just because it threw everyone for a loop in their handicapping doesn't somehow make this worse.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Tessablue » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:47 pm

stark wrote:Curious.....when it comes to legacies, would you rather have a HOTY trophy on your mantle or $17,000,000 cash in the bank?

Earnings records get broken all the time, though.

I agree that we'll never have a unanimously happy response to a BC venue. Which is why a healthy rotation is necessary- it provides an even distribution of the unhappiness!
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Charlie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:57 pm

No horses were hurt, no coverage of drug use or unsuspecting horse death. Cal racing even did a ‘we love horses’ commercial

NBC did some cool montages with nifty voice over that made horse racing look cool.

Horse racing actually looked like a good, interesting(and horse friendly) sport for a rare occasion on tv and everyone should be happy about that.
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby ThreeMustangs » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:00 pm

Charlie wrote:No horses were hurt, no coverage of drug use or unsuspecting horse death. Cal racing even did a ‘we love horses’ commercial



Lady Eli would beg to differ (to be fair, it wasn't a catastrophic injury).
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Charlie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:03 pm

ThreeMustangs wrote:
Charlie wrote:No horses were hurt, no coverage of drug use or unsuspecting horse death. Cal racing even did a ‘we love horses’ commercial



Lady Eli would beg to differ (to be fair, it wasn't a catastrophic injury).



This is true but I meant more serious injuries that happen mid race.
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:04 pm

So would the late Cheekaboomboom. :( He may not have been injured in one of the BC races, but it was still on Friday's program...and in front of Friday's crowd.
"A race after the Damascus Friday, Sharon Alesia and Ciaglia Racing's Cheekaboomboom broke down after the wire following his sixth-place finish in an optional-claiming allowance on the Del Mar turf course. The Unusual Heat gelding was euthanized later."
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Treve » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:40 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:IMO, speculating about drugs (the lack of) somehow being behind Arrogate's non-performance doesn't make a lot of sense. He won the World Cup, and Dubai doesn't even allow race-day Lasix.
There were so many poor performances from very good horses (Mor Spirit, Stellar Wind, Lady Aurelia, Marsha, Drefong, Unique Bella, Lady Eli, Arrogate, etc.) that I have a hard time believing that they all just stopped being good. The only thing they have in common is Del Mar.
The configuration of the tracks, dirt and turf, was tight, with sharp turns and very short stretches. That turf course should never have had fourteen horse fields.
Del Mar is very pretty and it makes for a nice 'boutique' meet, but I hope they never run the BC there again.


They might've had "Del Mar" in common but a lot of horses who did win also had never run there before either. I think that's a convenient excuse but there are more factors, already Lady Eli you can remove from that list since she was injured out of the gate. Unique Bella was a very vulnerable favourite, I think people failed to remember the F&M Sprint had never been won by a 3yo for one thing, then there are other factors like experience, fitness for another. Her ride did her no favours but anyway I was against her chances early on (even though I'd have loved to see her win she was no mortal lock). Some of the big faves had no prep races either and trained up to it, which is always a risk. Even outside of the usual fresh/firing off a layoff vs a horse that needs races under themselves, BC races are no ordinary race. Worked for Gun Runner but maybe less some of the others (and while he didn't have a recent prep, his last start was only 2 months back and he'd raced consistently since June so fitness was not a concern).

Stellar Wind was fighting off a) a long layoff and b) the Sadler angle who for whatever reason can't seem to get his horses in peak conditioning for the BC. Also I think very few people thought she looked like a winner in the paddock. Mor Spirit? Really? He's a good horse I'm not sure if I would've qualified him as a "very good" horse but he wasn't exactly a super star, and though BB is usually good at running horses off a layoff, his last race was in June and it was sizzling but it wasn't exactly reflective of his career as a whole.
The only one that truly and genuinely stunned me that I've not heard an explanation for so far was Lady Aurelia. But like Som said, sometimes horses just don't fire.

Not saying that Del Mar isn't a quirky track but one must be careful of falling into the trap of blaming the course or looking away from other factors that can contribute to a horse's poor performance. Also I think the "common denominator" angle can be a fallacy especially in a case like this, where aside from being race horses, some of these very good horses couldn't be any more different. Different distances, different run styles, etc. If it were solely a course thing then you'd think there'd be a difference between the dirt and turf results, and/or you'd see a pattern emerge amongst the winners. There didn't really seem to be one, the only really common thread that seemed to come up was potentially a dead rail on the dirt but that didn't stop a horse like Gun Runner...
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby Apollo » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:40 pm

I hope they never go back to Del Mar. It's fine as a pretend summer oasis if you're barred from New York. Otherwise it's more bouncing than running. The races never look normal so I'm never shocked at weird outcomes.

This was the worst Breeders Cup ever, IMO. Fortunately I attended the Canes/Virginia Tech game simultaneous to the Classic so I was able to get home late and mostly fast forward through most of the coverage I had missed.
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Re: TBC Breeders Cup Watch Party/Discussion Thread

Postby lurkey mclurker » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:46 pm

FWIW, Simon Callaghan said this about the track on Friday:

Posted : Nov 3, 2017, 2:44 PM
Del Mar: Callaghan on racetrack "It's pretty speedy"

Trainer Simon Callaghan won Friday's first race, the $200,000 Damascus Stakes, with Americanize, who disputed the pace throughout the seven-furlong race.

Americanize ($12) was timed in 1:21.73 and set fractions of 22.02 seconds for the opening quarter-mile and 44.39 for a half-mile.

"The track is pretty speedy," Callaghan said.

Americanize had his stakes debut in the Damascus, his third win in nine starts.

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/39423-del-mar-callaghan-on-racetrack-it-s-pretty-speedy

And DRF's Jay Privman (@DRFPrivman) picked six BC winners over the two days: Gun Runner, Talismanic, World Approval, Wuheida, Rushing Fall & Forever Unbridled.
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