Belmont Stakes

Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby sweettalk » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:29 pm

Whip is only to grab horse's attention if he is losing focus.
i don't mind seeing it when used this way. "hey, stop watching the crowd, stay in the race", a love tap or two, totally fine. once your horse is getting passed and slowing down, and you're 4, 5, 6 hits in... that's just pointless. and yeah, i've def seen some hitting that's on the side of cruelty.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby middleground » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:32 pm

MySaladDays wrote:
What really makes me WINCE is seeing a jockey whipping an exhausted horse. :shock: Let's not pretend that isn't abusive.


Damn, but I hate it when I see a jockey lay into a horse who is already going backwards in the stretch. And I've never seen a horse in those circumstances react and charge forward in response to that kind of useless flogging, either.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Apollo » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:05 pm

You have to keep whipping in case a matchup outcome is at stake
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Catalina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:17 am

Horsebagger wrote:Sometimes, i don't get it. Why can't it be as simple as Tapwrit being better than IWC this weekend, instead of being critical of the jock resorting to the whip in the 11th furlong of a 12 furlong race as he was getting passed? The race was over at that point.

Rebreaking after going 11 furlongs? What does that even mean?


Maragh used the whip before Tapwrit passed IWC. Maragh whipped IWC and then rather abruptly Tapwrit passed IWC, and I think that was in part because IWC slowed down at that point.

As to your other comment, Curlin kept battling Rags to Riches for the lead in the stretch, and - if I recall correctly - got his nose back in front twice before having to concede his Belmont to the filly.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby MySaladDays » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:17 am

Catalina wrote:
Horsebagger wrote:Maragh used the whip before Tapwrit passed IWC. Maragh whipped IWC and then rather abruptly Tapwrit passed IWC, and I think that was in part because IWC slowed down at that point.


Yeah, if horses could read, and i was a horse, I'd start a blog telling them to shut down if their jockey whips them unncessarily. :D Just to prove a point.

At any rate, I wish I had not played anything other than the BEL Stakes on Sat. The other tracks had great value, and I didn't much enjoy watching Baffert's 4th-stringers winning at 2-1 and such.

I usually do pretty well on Saturdays, but by sticking with Belmont for their "special" day of mostly chalky races, I reallly didn't make much $$ except on Ascend.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Treve » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:56 am

From what I've observed when a horse is beginning to lose, it is often more effective to show it the whip rather than using it. There's a tb mare at my barn like that, the instructors tell people never to actually hit her with the whip because she will get wound up and cranky and you'll lose her, but if you show her the whip it has the effect of a "love tap" on most horses to get her focused on her work.
Even in other disciplines, when hitting with the whip is actually effective, it's because it is being used as a punishing/warning whack to a horse that is about to pull a fast one and occasionally a horse that is worried about a jump coming fast and ignoring your leg.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Horsebagger » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:57 am

Catalina wrote:
Horsebagger wrote:Sometimes, i don't get it. Why can't it be as simple as Tapwrit being better than IWC this weekend, instead of being critical of the jock resorting to the whip in the 11th furlong of a 12 furlong race as he was getting passed? The race was over at that point.

Rebreaking after going 11 furlongs? What does that even mean?


Maragh used the whip before Tapwrit passed IWC. Maragh whipped IWC and then rather abruptly Tapwrit passed IWC, and I think that was in part because IWC slowed down at that point.

As to your other comment, Curlin kept battling Rags to Riches for the lead in the stretch, and - if I recall correctly - got his nose back in front twice before having to concede his Belmont to the filly.


You realize they video tape these races nowadays, right?

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/10/15776 ... deo-replay


He pulled the whip two strides from the 1/8 pole (2:21) with Tapwrit right alongside...waved it at him (2:23)...hit him a couple times right handed, switched to left handed for one more try just outside the 1/16th pole...realized he was done and didn't hit him again.

quibble with the exact timing all you want, but that's representative of what happened. There is such a thing called momentum. One horse had it at the 1/8 the pole, the other didn't, and the result was foregone approaching the 1/8 pole, barring something catastrophic. Which is why i'm puzzled by your reference to Curlin, which you got wrong. The filly got to the front and was hit one time and never conceded the lead throughout a fantastic stretch run by both horses.

Anybody looking to critique that ride on either end of the spectrum (whether he was too aggressive and abusive, or not enough to try and win) is barking up the wrong tree. I don't see room for blaming the jock, but what do I know. In my eyes, Tapwrit was simply better with the trip he got. By 2:21, the race was over regardless of anything the rider did or what anyone wants to suggest he could/should have done.

I trust my interpretation of what my eyes saw. You can have yours.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:29 am

@Horsebagger and @Catalina, a high percentage of the time when there is a two-horse stretch drive, the horse on the outside has the advantage. I do not know why this is so, but it happens so often that it's clearly not due to random chance.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Catalina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:15 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:@Horsebagger and @Catalina, a high percentage of the time when there is a two-horse stretch drive, the horse on the outside has the advantage. I do not know why this is so, but it happens so often that it's clearly not due to random chance.


Interesting, thanks for pointing that out, RR.
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Re: Belmont Stakes

Postby Catalina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:26 pm

Horsebagger wrote:You realize they video tape these races nowadays, right?

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/10/15776 ... deo-replay


He pulled the whip two strides from the 1/8 pole (2:21) with Tapwrit right alongside...waved it at him (2:23)...hit him a couple times right handed, switched to left handed for one more try just outside the 1/16th pole...realized he was done and didn't hit him again.


How on earth you can tell that much detail from that video tape is beyond me, it's far too blurry to see much more than who is in front. But, whatever. I had based my comment on watching the race live on TV.
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