Always Dreaming

Re: Always Dreaming

Postby serenassong » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:59 am

It is indeed. That pic of his stomach was awful- he must have been so uncomfortable.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Tessablue » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm

Treve wrote:It sounds that the Gastroguard is used by Todd as a preventive on all his horses so they wouldn't necessarily have known he had ulcers prior or how bad they were before he was actually examined.
But I wonder if the draw reins pre-Derby contributed to his anxiety and stress rising considering he started non-performing right after the Derby. I gotta wonder how long he was living with this bad a case of ulcers.

My thought went to the draw reins as well. They aren't typically used for long and he ran like a sore, unhappy horse in the Preakness. Really hate to question trainers, however.

Sincerely glad to hear that he'll be back next year- I certainly wasn't expecting it. I still think he has a world of talent and would love to see him show it as an older horse.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Treve » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Yeah I'm not questioning Todd's decision to use them, at some point there's an element of training that is trial and error.

I'm also glad he'll get some R&R and have a chance to prove he wasn't just Nyquist round 2.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby katmandu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:59 pm

Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Treve » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:33 pm

katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .


His behaviour didn't change though as far as I remember, people were saying he was always hard to hold back and keep in hand when training/working but he was getting stronger and stronger. I don't know to what extent this is true though.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Miss Woodford » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm

katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .

We know that "stress causes ulcers" is a myth for humans and I'm sure it is overblown in horses as well. Diet plays the biggest role - feeding a horse a grain-heavy diet while confined to a stall 23 hours a day is a recipe for digestive issues of all sorts. And that kind of lifestyle (vs hanging out in a pasture all the time) is correlated to having a lot of stress put on them.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Somnambulist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:22 pm

NSAID usage is not at all responsible?
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby katmandu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:15 pm

Miss Woodford wrote:
katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .

We know that "stress causes ulcers" is a myth for humans and I'm sure it is overblown in horses as well. Diet plays the biggest role - feeding a horse a grain-heavy diet while confined to a stall 23 hours a day is a recipe for digestive issues of all sorts. And that kind of lifestyle (vs hanging out in a pasture all the time) is correlated to having a lot of stress put on them.


My point was that draw reins may have been the result of his ulcer driven behavior. . . . he became explosive and uncontrollable on the track so they tied his nose to his chest. . . . Makes it virtually impossible for a horse to get his hind end under him in order to "launch". It's also known that exercise can cause the most concentrated stomach acid from the lowest part of the stomach to be pushed up into the upper area where ulcers develop. Ouch. Given that ~90% of performance horses have ulcers, he was hardly in the minority. NSAIDs are also well associated with ulcers, as noted. But I wasn't addressing the "why" of the ulcers, only his behavior. And it's all speculative anyway.

It would be very cool if he regains his promise, and goes on as a 4 year old.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby Tessablue » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:22 pm

Stress isn't going to cause an ulcer, but I'm sure it can increase a horse's symptoms or susceptibility and it's been found that common stressful activities like trailering are associated with ulcer formation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16178400). Also it looks like horses with ulcers have zero to minimal Helicobacter in their digestive tracts (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26809803) which is really interesting! So I'd say reasons are still pretty unknown, but at least there appears to be an effort to look into it.

I totally hear the point about how the ulcers could have caused his behavior before the Derby- usually I do think of rank horses as unhappy, but he looked to me like a very forward, enthusiastic horse in those pre-Derby gallops. Doesn't mean he wasn't sick though. I just hope all this hasn't soured him on racing.
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Re: Always Dreaming

Postby BaroqueAgain1 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:18 am

Also it looks like horses with ulcers have zero to minimal Helicobacter in their digestive tracts...

Would it be helpful to add a probiotic targeting that lack to the horse's supplement regimen?
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