Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:12 am

Tessablue wrote:Incidentally, according to contemporary reporting, Secretariat was considered by some a harbinger of what steroids would bring to the sport.


I'm sorry, but this is where I need to step into the discussion. Could you please point me to the contemporary reporting you are referring to? Not only was I an eyewitness to Secretariat's career and read most of the reporting about him at the time, but I knew Lucien Laurin. I was privileged to spend a full day with him at Santa Anita a couple of years before his death. We talked a lot about his career and, of course, about Secretariat. I was his host and it was a private day at the races with him. Lucien said he never gave Secretariat any drugs. The horse raced clean his entire career. Whether or not you want to believe me, this is the truth. This was long after Secretariat's death, and Lucien was retired and living in Florida. He was in Southern California for an event celebrating the 25th anniversary of Secretariat's Triple Crown.

If you want to call Lucien Laurin a liar 17 years after his death, well...his son, Roger, is still alive although at 81, I don't know the current state of his health. Ron Turcotte is a wonderful man who used to answer letters. Perhaps you could write to him about this matter. Maybe he will respond.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Somnambulist » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:17 am

I have a bridge I can sell you.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
Somnambulist
 
Posts: 7032
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Tessablue » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:42 am

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Tessablue wrote:Incidentally, according to contemporary reporting, Secretariat was considered by some a harbinger of what steroids would bring to the sport.


I'm sorry, but this is where I need to step into the discussion. Could you please point me to the contemporary reporting you are referring to? Not only was I an eyewitness to Secretariat's career and read most of the reporting about him at the time, but I knew Lucien Laurin. I was privileged to spend a full day with him at Santa Anita a couple of years before his death. We talked a lot about his career and, of course, about Secretariat. I was his host and it was a private day at the races with him. Lucien said he never gave Secretariat any drugs. The horse raced clean his entire career. Whether or not you want to believe me, this is the truth. This was long after Secretariat's death, and Lucien was retired and living in Florida. He was in Southern California for an event celebrating the 25th anniversary of Secretariat's Triple Crown.

If you want to call Lucien Laurin a liar 17 years after his death, well...his son, Roger, is still alive although at 81, I don't know the current state of his health. Ron Turcotte is a wonderful man who used to answer letters. Perhaps you could write to him about this matter. Maybe he will respond.

Please read my sentence more carefully before you take offense to it.

Anyways, here is one of the articles I was referring to- https://www.si.com/vault/1974/02/18/617065/and-they-used-to-call-him-sexy
Tessablue
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Boston

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Insane Crazy » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:29 pm

I think War Emblem's Derby often falls out of people's memory, because the horse himself was one of those flash in the pan types when it came to the TC. But it really was an eye-popping way to win the Derby and I'm happily reminded of that thanks to his high placing. I love that angry dude.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
User avatar
Insane Crazy
 
Posts: 3023
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Treve » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:31 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Tessablue wrote:Incidentally, according to contemporary reporting, Secretariat was considered by some a harbinger of what steroids would bring to the sport.


I'm sorry, but this is where I need to step into the discussion. Could you please point me to the contemporary reporting you are referring to? Not only was I an eyewitness to Secretariat's career and read most of the reporting about him at the time, but I knew Lucien Laurin. I was privileged to spend a full day with him at Santa Anita a couple of years before his death. We talked a lot about his career and, of course, about Secretariat. I was his host and it was a private day at the races with him. Lucien said he never gave Secretariat any drugs. The horse raced clean his entire career. Whether or not you want to believe me, this is the truth. This was long after Secretariat's death, and Lucien was retired and living in Florida. He was in Southern California for an event celebrating the 25th anniversary of Secretariat's Triple Crown.

If you want to call Lucien Laurin a liar 17 years after his death, well...his son, Roger, is still alive although at 81, I don't know the current state of his health. Ron Turcotte is a wonderful man who used to answer letters. Perhaps you could write to him about this matter. Maybe he will respond.

Please read my sentence more carefully before you take offense to it.

Anyways, here is one of the articles I was referring to- https://www.si.com/vault/1974/02/18/617065/and-they-used-to-call-him-sexy


That was a very interesting read and a fun time capsule of sorts.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
User avatar
Treve
 
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:04 pm

Tessablue wrote:Please read my sentence more carefully before you take offense to it.

Anyways, here is one of the articles I was referring to- https://www.si.com/vault/1974/02/18/617 ... l-him-sexy


@Tessablue: Two things about that hyperbolic SI article from the time before Secretariat actually started covering TB mares and getting them nicely in foal. (1) The stuff in the article about steroids as related to Secretariat and Riva Ridge is 100% pure speculation. (2) In that very article, Lucien Laurin said pretty much the same thing he told me 25 years later...that he did not give Red such substances. Also, the article's speculation about steroid use is totally contradicted in the same article when it talks about how Mrs. Tweedy didn't even want her colts to be sedated when they first got to Claiborne.

@Somnambulist: I'm not sure who your comment about a bridge to sell is aimed at, but if you're up for a bit of research on the internet, see if you can find anything about the 25th anniversary of Secretariat's TC and the fact that Lucien flew to SoCal to attend the event. I invited him and was his host. In fact, I invited Ron Turcotte also, but he wasn't traveling as much then as he does now. Instead, he sent me an autographed print of Secretariat winning the Derby.

I 100% believed Lucien Laurin when he said Secretariat never was given steroids, and still do to this day. Look at this photo of Secretariat at three months, and you can already see the powerful musculature that he became known for during his career. http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/secretariatcom_2271_60324436

Lastly, if steroid use was so widespread at racetracks in the early 1970's, how come all the trainers of all the other horses who raced against Red didn't use steroids to beat him? Among the top stakes winners Secretariat defeated were: Linda's Chief, Stop the Music, Angle Light, Knightly Dawn, Sham, Shecky Greene, Forego, Our Native, Royal and Regal, Cougar II, Kennedy Road, Riva Ridge, Key to the Mint, Summer Guest, Tentam, Big Spruce, and London Company. Several of them are in the Hall of Fame.

Please do not tear this great horse -- or any horse -- down just to make a point. I can't stand Baffert so have a hard time rooting for his horses. But there isn't a single one of the horses he trains that I would tear down for any reason. It just isn't right to retroactively smear a horse who gave so much to this sport and his trainer, both of whom are long gone.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Somnambulist » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Just because his trainer said he wasn't at a promo event really doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

Truthfully I don't see how anyone could take issue with this thread - the entire thing was so objective that the only way you can possibly have taken issue with it is if you were looking too.

Comments like this are why we can't have nice things.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
Somnambulist
 
Posts: 7032
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Treve » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:07 pm

Nowhere did Tessablue state or even imply that Secretariat was on steroids. Tb's sentence was actually pretty clearly written out "[...]considered by some[...]" You are taking umbrage to something that was never said, by people that aren't even here.

You can take issue with the notion that some people believe he was roided out, but no one here actually insinuated that was even remotely a fact. Though wrongfully that it may have been, he was used as an example by contemporaries of what might happened - those comments, rather than whether they were factual or preposterous, were simply used here as a comparison to the comments we still make to this day about how medications impact the sport and the breed.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
User avatar
Treve
 
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:17 pm

Somnambulist wrote:Truthfully I don't see how anyone could take issue with this thread


I have no issue with this thread. The subject is a worthwhile one for discussion. However, I will defend Secretariat's reputation and that of Mr. Laurin who is deceased and not able to defend himself.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Ranking the Derbys: A Quantitative Analysis

Postby Ridan_Remembered » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:34 pm

Treve wrote:Nowhere did Tessablue state or even imply that Secretariat was on steroids.


And this is where I disagree...here is the full statement: "This actually lines up pretty well with the steroid ban, which was around ~2009. Incidentally, according to contemporary reporting, Secretariat was considered by some a harbinger of what steroids would bring to the sport. I would need to do some more reading, but I believe steroid use began (or at least was known about) in the 60's or early 70's at the latest."

What other interpretation can there be for this statement other than the implication that Red was on steroids? The statement, "Secretariat was considered by some a harbinger of what steroids would bring to the sport" can have no other interpretation.

This thread started as a fine analysis of the relative performances of Derby winners since 1970. It quickly veered off track into a discussion of steroid use, and Secretariat was used as the example of performances pre vs. post steroid ban. I will go to my grave and beyond loving that horse and respecting his connections. I mean no disrespect to anyone here and did not wish to cause discomfort for anyone posting on this thread. But linking Secretariat to steroid use caused me genuine discomfort. What's fair is fair. I'm only asking for folks to avoid impugning the integrity of those who are no longer here to defend themselves.
User avatar
Ridan_Remembered
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:15 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Racing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: curious clover and 6 guests