Classic Empire

Re: Classic Empire

Postby Izvestia » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:56 am

I don't find him particularly attractive as a stallion - chronic feet and other physical issues, a little nuts upstairs, and he didn't really develop from 2 to 3, everyone kind of caught up to him. I always thought he looked smallish and light-boned.
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Flanders » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Tessablue » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Flanders wrote:Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.

Agreed, I think it's unfair to call him crazy- he was clearly sore and I certainly can't blame him for refusing to hurt himself. I don't know what the distribution of blame between the owner/trainer/stud farm is, but I'm pretty disturbed by the way this horse was treated. If they had just backed off him when his issues flared up in the spring, what are the odds he'd be racing in the Classic?
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Treve » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:27 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Flanders wrote:Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.

Agreed, I think it's unfair to call him crazy- he was clearly sore and I certainly can't blame him for refusing to hurt himself. I don't know what the distribution of blame between the owner/trainer/stud farm is, but I'm pretty disturbed by the way this horse was treated. If they had just backed off him when his issues flared up in the spring, what are the odds he'd be racing in the Classic?


Yeah in fact I think he's the opposite of crazy, he's a highly intelligent animal, which can definitely be harder to train and can make them quirkier to be around. But he was a very good communicator, he was already trying to say on the trailer ride to the Holy Bull that something was wrong.
And even if they'd still had him running through the TC, I don't understand why he was not given time off to just be a horse and heal fully. He got no down time at all, stayed in the training barn during recovery and was put back to work ASAP. Heck they still could do that, give him the rest of the year off and bring him back hopefully matured out, stronger, healthy and happy. But they choose to retire him instead which is a waste imho.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Izvestia » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:25 am

While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Flanders » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:05 am

Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.

Yes he may not have. I find it really hard to judge his ability at 3 since he had his foot issue that they persistently worked him on (or tried to).

They just kept trying to force him into races all year, probably knowing he was retiring at the end of the year anyway. I feel if they would have just stopped on him and given him true time off to get better, he may have been able to race the summer/fall races.
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Treve » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:43 am

Flanders wrote:
Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.

Yes he may not have. I find it really hard to judge his ability at 3 since he had his foot issue that they persistently worked him on (or tried to).

They just kept trying to force him into races all year, probably knowing he was retiring at the end of the year anyway. I feel if they would have just stopped on him and given him true time off to get better, he may have been able to race the summer/fall races.


Yeah I feel similarly. I do feel he was one of the most talented of the crop, I agree he seemed like a smaller, lighter horse though that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think to be able to come back and win a G1 Derby prep off working on a foot abscess for weeks without anything else shows a degree of ability and determination.
I'm not sure he could've caught AD on Derby day, but I have to wonder what would've happened if he hadn't been brutally mugged at the start (he had an eye swollen shut at the end of the race and was covered in cuts) and taken all that mud and still managing fourth. We'll never know now cause he wasn't given a chance to reach his full potential. In the last pics I saw of him he seemed more developed than during the spring, so while it's speculation I think that if they'd been patient and let him matured he could've moved forward as a 4yo.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Somnambulist » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:00 am

Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.


This.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Re: Classic Empire

Postby Treve » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:47 am

Nice piece by Haskin
The Empire that almost was
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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