Arrogate

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:14 am

Tessablue wrote:Man, two days ago I was starting to worry that sweeping four of the most competitive dirt G1s in the world was a big deal or something... super relieved to discover that it's not.
Wasn't the Pegasus pretty much just a matchup between Arrogate and Chrome? And the real Chrome didn't show up?

What dirt horses did Arrogate beat in Dubai that were better than he met in the BCC?

My point is that people are elevating the status of both races due to the purses or other mystical reasons. The level of the competition is always what matters most, always.
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Life At Zen
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:02 am

peeptoad wrote:
Apollo wrote: Late bloomers are always frauds to some degree.
I don't have a dog in this fight but, this sentence, in any sort of context, is one of weirdest I've ever read anywhere on the internet.

I've heard that argument before and I've never been able to wrap my head around it.
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Insane Crazy
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:17 am

Life At Zen wrote:
peeptoad wrote:
Apollo wrote: Late bloomers are always frauds to some degree.
I don't have a dog in this fight but, this sentence, in any sort of context, is one of weirdest I've ever read anywhere on the internet.

I've heard that argument before and I've never been able to wrap my head around it.
Remember how Cigar was a total sham?

Oy...
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
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Tessablue
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:09 am

Admin wrote:
Tessablue wrote:Man, two days ago I was starting to worry that sweeping four of the most competitive dirt G1s in the world was a big deal or something... super relieved to discover that it's not.
Wasn't the Pegasus pretty much just a matchup between Arrogate and Chrome? And the real Chrome didn't show up?

What dirt horses did Arrogate beat in Dubai that were better than he met in the BCC?

My point is that people are elevating the status of both races due to the purses or other mystical reasons. The level of the competition is always what matters most, always.
Shaman Ghost and Gun Runner, the other top older handicap horses this year. "Major G1" is basically just shorthand for "quality field, probably at a classic distance, probably requires shipping." I agree that people do sometimes hype up big-name races without cause, and a hypothetical Woodward could have a better field than the DWC, but that doesn't seem to be the case here and wins in New York, Florida, California and Dubai will always be more noteworthy than a win streak compiled at a single track or in a single state.

And I'm not sure how relevant this is to the current discussion, but field quality does seem to be one of the variables that time erases very quickly. Nobody remembers or cares that many Triple Crown winners faced absolutely terrible fields- only the names of the races are left to memory. Unless it becomes a new norm, Arrogate's Classic/Pegasus/DWC triple will persist for a long while- fortunately for us, those wins came against fields of actual quality and were all tremendous performances on their own.
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bare it all
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:16 am

I keep seeing people now claim Arrogate is a fraud who didn't beat "anything" in the fields he's faced...

Can we pause for a moment to look at the actual TIMES of the races he's run? I can't access PPs at work, but this horse isn't just beating the foes lines up against him, he's doing it in style. He's not running slow races against slower opponents.

Saturday's race was.... weird. Like Mike mentioned, he works faster in the mornings than he 'ran'... Maybe Bob didn't have him cranked up enough. Maybe he hates Del Mar. Who knows. But don't dismiss the races he did run.

He could never run another race and I'd still say he was one of the most talented freaks I've seen in my lifetime.
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:40 am

Tessablue wrote:Man, two days ago I was starting to worry that sweeping four of the most competitive dirt G1s in the world was a big deal or something... super relieved to discover that it's not.
I know, right? :lol:
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:47 pm

Tessablue wrote:I'm not sure I can think of a better historical four-race series than what Arrogate pulled off. Two track records, high-quality opponents, tons of shipping, multiple runstyles, insane figures... and it all came out of nowhere. That's an additional level of difficultly towards understanding this situation: there's literally no precedent for it.
The horse is clearly extremely good. I feel like Saturday was just a fluke. However, when people are in the moment with horses like this they go crazy bringing out the words like "best" "ever" and other legendary-level connotations. I'm a bigger fan of enjoying things while the dust settles a little bit.
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:03 pm

Arrogate has impressed with how he's won, not who he beat. That's why I'm having a problem with the "4 greatest races" idea that is talked about a lot. No one would be saying it if the same fields were called the Woodward or Pacific Classic.

Arrogate is hardly alone. The same is said of Songbird among her age group, and the same was said of more good and greats than it can't be said of. And it's fair to discuss. Do yo think any of us would be such a fan or calling him a monster had he simply won those races and beat those fields? No. It's how he did it that had us all excited.
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CoronadosQuest
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:40 pm

Apollo wrote: Late bloomers are always frauds to some degree.
So you are saying that Cigar was a fraud?
sweettalk
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:35 pm

what abt two yr olds who dominate then start trailing off and are also fans from April til their retirement? those horses aren't "frauds"? what are they, then?
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Della
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:27 pm

CoronadosQuest wrote:
Apollo wrote: Late bloomers are always frauds to some degree.
So you are saying that Cigar was a fraud?

Or Zenyatta?
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Curtis
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:02 pm

I don't want to speak for Apollo but I do remember getting the idea from his posts that he holds Triple Crown race participants in high regard. I'm guessing then a different set of criteria for a mare but I'd only be guessing.
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:34 pm

Curtis wrote:I don't want to speak for Apollo but I do remember getting the idea from his posts that he holds Triple Crown race participants in high regard. I'm guessing then a different set of criteria for a mare but I'd only be guessing.
Arrogate is also not a front runner so surely he's doomed.
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Squeaky
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:30 am

Any word on how Arrogate is doing the last few days? I saw a brief video on Twitter of him jogging. I wonder if Bob has a new training regimen in place? I also wonder why he has been trained to break slowly and come from behind when one of his best races he was near/ on the lead in the Travers? Would like to see him get his speed back again...
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:10 pm

Some commentator on TVG thought he should work solo a few times rather than breaking off well behind workmates. I might try working him from the gate, too. There is such a thing as being too relaxed!

But really, that race was just too bad to explain.
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stark
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:07 pm

Baffert says he prefers to stay home and run in the Pacific Classic Aug 19th....BUT.....if he thinks Arrogate needs an extra week to be 100% then he'd ship to the Woodward Stakes on Sept 2nd.

http://www.drf.com/news/preview/arrogat ... ard-backup
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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honneerider
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:31 pm

Since I will be at Saratoga for the Woodward, would be a nice surprise
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:07 am

Jay Privman‏
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Arrogate just now 4f in 47 and change on Baffert watch, out 5f in 1:00.31. BB broke into a wide smile and dabbed

"He was good today." Re: Pacific Classic, "We're running." Full story up in a bit at http://www.drf.com
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
peeptoad
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:46 am

stark wrote:Jay Privman‏
@DRFPrivman


Arrogate just now 4f in 47 and change on Baffert watch, out 5f in 1:00.31. BB broke into a wide smile and dabbed

"He was good today." Re: Pacific Classic, "We're running." Full story up in a bit at http://www.drf.com
Hopefully he rebounds in the Pac Classic, though he did look good working prior to his lackluster race, so who knows. I'd be happy to tear up a ticket when he beats me though. I was kind of hoping he'd go to the Spa though since I'll be there Woodward day. I probably won't get a chance to see him live before he retires (unless the Pegasus race is run at SA next year because I might be in SoCal then).
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CoronadosQuest
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:21 pm

He was the fastest of 21 works too (47:20 was official time). I hope xbtv has a video of it soon :)
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