Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Somnambulist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:11 pm

Ballerina wrote:C'mon, Som. Are you sure you weren't the one leaving the bar drunk.


Only 3/4's positive.

Eclipse awards are one of racing's biggest problems. Pointless and cause more drama than teenage girls.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Kennedy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:11 am

Somnambulist wrote:
Ballerina wrote:C'mon, Som. Are you sure you weren't the one leaving the bar drunk.


Only 3/4's positive.

Eclipse awards are one of racing's biggest problems. Pointless and cause more drama than teenage girls.


The Eclipse Awards may create drama but they also create interest and discussion at a time when some people may have little to talk about.

We need something to keep us going during the inner meet.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Allspice » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:49 pm

Wando wrote:
Allspice wrote:...5 for 6, four of those wins G1s, set two track records on two surfaces at two different distances, defeated 4 G1/Gr.1 winners and an additional 17 graded stakes winners, not counting the BC Mile which would up that count to 10 G1 winners...

It's an argument I know comes up (no matter the horse or surface) so I looked at the quality of the horses in the races he won. Turned out he wasn't facing slouches, those turfers were pretty solid.

It's too bad he missed by a headbob in the Stephen Foster. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He would have been undefeated on all three surfaces and at worst people would just shrug and say "meh, well he did beat the Classic winner on his own surface."


How would he be undefeated?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anyone saying that Wise Dan didn't deserver the awards he got last year, most are just pointing out that according to past trends for Eclipse Awards the only time a turf horse gets HOY is when there isn't a suitable dirt router. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that. Is it right? Perhaps not but until the US changes how they view turf horses they will always be viewed as inferior to dirt horses.


Undefeated in 2012, he won five of his six races last year.

No one would argue that, in fact I said it too:

Allspice wrote:I don't think he deserves it this year, but his HoTY title was deserved last year. He didn't win by default, turf horses don't win by default. There is a reason only three turf horses (including Wise Dan himself) have won it. Voters will always try to give the award to a dirt horse unless the turf horse's campaign was so good they can't ignore it. If they could have justified giving it to I'll Have Another based on his Kentucky Derby/Preakness combo, they would have.


I just think saying Wise Dan won by default isn't correct. Dirt horses are the default, a turf horse has to earn it. If their records are fairly comparable, the dirt horse will win and it won't even be close. 2007 is a good example of this. Curlin, Lawyer Ron, and English Channel's campaigns were similar and English Channel wasn't even considered for HoTY or Older Male. Invasor got more HoTY votes than he did. Like you alluded to, it isn't fair but that's the way it is.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby dustino140 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:22 pm

Kennedy wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:
Ballerina wrote:C'mon, Som. Are you sure you weren't the one leaving the bar drunk.


Only 3/4's positive.

Eclipse awards are one of racing's biggest problems. Pointless and cause more drama than teenage girls.


The Eclipse Awards may create drama but they also create interest and discussion at a time when some people may have little to talk about.

We need something to keep us going during the inner meet.


I'd recommend the Thursday feature at Gulfstream or Santa Anita.
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