Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:01 pm

Kay16 wrote: No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.
Kay16
Posts: 1848
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 pm

Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Kay16 wrote: No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.

Biggest protester in Wise Dan's corner. Of course you wouldn't.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:14 pm

Kay16 wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
Kay16 wrote: No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.

Biggest protester in Wise Dan's corner. Of course you wouldn't.
Protesting in response to someone who claims Wise Dan didn't deserve HOY last year? :)
User avatar
Allspice
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:11 am

Kay16 wrote:No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were inconsistent can be. You do realize it's not turf miles and then all dirt races, there are other turf divisions out there. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". It's he was consistent, no one else was. I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules, not my opinion. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.
So...essentially you're saying if it doesn't go to a dirt male, it's winning by default? I guess five of our last ten HoTYs won by default then.

Unless you mean every other division deserves precedence over the turf division, in which case I don't know how you can say you're not biased against turf horses.
thinair
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:46 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:28 pm

The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.

None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:31 pm

thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
Somnambulist
Posts: 7382
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Ballerina wrote:
thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
thinair
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:46 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:40 pm

Ballerina wrote:
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
Not really. Wise Dan actually didn't "overcome" anything. Nor did Kotashaan. They just had their successful campaigns in year's that no dirt horses distinguished themselves.

Once again, this doesn't diminish the great talent of Wise Dan. It would be hard to find a qualified opinion that doesn't consider him one of the very best horses racing now, if not THE best. The discussion is more about how champions are crowned in this country....whether you, or anyone, thinks this is right or wrong.
thinair
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:46 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:41 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.

I like this better.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:02 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.
Yeah, I'll buy that. I also buy the fact that when dirt horses don't put in a credible campaign, the award should go elsewhere. All those top bred dirt horses racing in all those dirt races and a turf horse in a limited # of races outclasses them. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot!

Here's to GoD winning the BCC so we don't have another non-stop harrangue as to which horse is the cream of the crap.
thinair
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:46 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:01 pm

Admin wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
Maybe. But remember when a turf horse racks up a lot of turf wins, it's usually against inferior competition. We're all quick to note the quality of dirt fields, but we're very slow to note the quality of turf fields.

You might be able to argue my point? Good luck.

I do agree with your general statement about the quality of horses in our major turf races. Our breeding industry is geared towards making quality dirt horses.
Somnambulist
Posts: 7382
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:39 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.
Yeah, I'll buy that. I also buy the fact that when dirt horses don't put in a credible campaign, the award should go elsewhere. All those top bred dirt horses racing in all those dirt races and a turf horse in a limited # of races outclasses them. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot!

Here's to GoD winning the BCC so we don't have another non-stop harrangue as to which horse is the cream of the crap.
I don't see how it's a harangue. No one is debating Wise Dan's talent. He's ultra talented. He is unfortunately just running in a country that does not favor turf racing. It's not wrong, or right, or anything other than reality. Most races, all the purse money, the breeding industry is focused on the dirt main. HOTY hardly determines which horse is best, anyway.

It should go elsewhere in that event, and does, but it's still a lot like having a guy hit on you only after he's been drunk and all the other girls in the bar have turned him down.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:39 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.
Yeah, I'll buy that. I also buy the fact that when dirt horses don't put in a credible campaign, the award should go elsewhere. All those top bred dirt horses racing in all those dirt races and a turf horse in a limited # of races outclasses them. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot!

Here's to GoD winning the BCC so we don't have another non-stop harrangue as to which horse is the cream of the crap.
I don't see how it's a harangue. No one is debating Wise Dan's talent. He's ultra talented. He is unfortunately just running in a country that does not favor turf racing. It's not wrong, or right, or anything other than reality. Most races, all the purse money, the breeding industry is focused on the dirt main. HOTY hardly determines which horse is best, anyway.

It should go elsewhere in that event, and does, but it's still a lot like having a guy hit on you only after he's been drunk and all the other girls in the bar have turned him down.
My only point in this discussion is to counter those who say Wise Dan wasn't deserving, and there are people - even right here on this forum - who still can't accept that Wise Dan deserved HOY for 2012.

Eclipse awards come down to what horse does the best in the BC races with just a bit of emphasis on what they did all year. And, which horse is best? Subjective, to say the least, but when one horse gets an overhwhelming # of votes for the award, you can pretty much chalk it up to a overwhelming consensus - ala Dan winning HOY for 2012.

Horse of the Year

Wise Dan, 194; I'll Have Another, 30; Fort Larned, 12; Royal Delta, 8; Little Mike, 6; Frankel, 1; Groupie Doll, 1; Shanghai Bobby, 1; Voter Abstentions, 1.


I fail to get your analogy albeit funny/sad. But, it reads like another swipe against a horse who doesn't deserve it.

We so seldom get such brilliance as Wise Dan. We ogle and ooh, and ahh over the European grass horses, but when it comes to our own - well, they're just 2nd/3rd tier. I don't get it and never will.
Somnambulist
Posts: 7382
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:48 pm

The only one saying he's anything less than spectacular is you.

Some people are really trying to read more into this than needs be read.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:03 pm

Somnambulist wrote:The only one saying he's anything less than spectacular is you.

Some people are really trying to read more into this than needs be read.
C'mon, Som. Are you sure you weren't the one leaving the bar drunk.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:29 pm

Admin wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
Maybe. But remember when a turf horse racks up a lot of turf wins, it's usually against inferior competition. We're all quick to note the quality of dirt fields, but we're very slow to note the quality of turf fields.
I'm not making a case fort turf horses winning over dirt horses. Wise Dan has taken down a lot of good horses on grass, synthetic, and dirt - even in his 2nd place. Another poster on this topic laid out his wins quite nicely.
User avatar
Allspice
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:19 pm

Admin wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
Maybe. But remember when a turf horse racks up a lot of turf wins, it's usually against inferior competition. We're all quick to note the quality of dirt fields, but we're very slow to note the quality of turf fields.
I did actually do just that earlier in this thread:
Allspice wrote:...5 for 6, four of those wins G1s, set two track records on two surfaces at two different distances, defeated 4 G1/Gr.1 winners and an additional 17 graded stakes winners, not counting the BC Mile which would up that count to 10 G1 winners...
It's an argument I know comes up (no matter the horse or surface) so I looked at the quality of the horses in the races he won. Turned out he wasn't facing slouches, those turfers were pretty solid.

It's too bad he missed by a headbob in the Stephen Foster. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He would have been undefeated on all three surfaces and at worst people would just shrug and say "meh, well he did beat the Classic winner on his own surface."
Wando
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:15 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:41 pm

Allspice wrote:...5 for 6, four of those wins G1s, set two track records on two surfaces at two different distances, defeated 4 G1/Gr.1 winners and an additional 17 graded stakes winners, not counting the BC Mile which would up that count to 10 G1 winners...

It's an argument I know comes up (no matter the horse or surface) so I looked at the quality of the horses in the races he won. Turned out he wasn't facing slouches, those turfers were pretty solid.

It's too bad he missed by a headbob in the Stephen Foster. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He would have been undefeated on all three surfaces and at worst people would just shrug and say "meh, well he did beat the Classic winner on his own surface."
How would he be undefeated?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anyone saying that Wise Dan didn't deserver the awards he got last year, most are just pointing out that according to past trends for Eclipse Awards the only time a turf horse gets HOY is when there isn't a suitable dirt router. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that. Is it right? Perhaps not but until the US changes how they view turf horses they will always be viewed as inferior to dirt horses.
User avatar
Ballerina
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: Chesapeake, VA & Saratoga, NY

Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Wando wrote:
Allspice wrote:...5 for 6, four of those wins G1s, set two track records on two surfaces at two different distances, defeated 4 G1/Gr.1 winners and an additional 17 graded stakes winners, not counting the BC Mile which would up that count to 10 G1 winners...

It's an argument I know comes up (no matter the horse or surface) so I looked at the quality of the horses in the races he won. Turned out he wasn't facing slouches, those turfers were pretty solid.

It's too bad he missed by a headbob in the Stephen Foster. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He would have been undefeated on all three surfaces and at worst people would just shrug and say "meh, well he did beat the Classic winner on his own surface."
How would he be undefeated?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anyone saying that Wise Dan didn't deserver the awards he got last year, most are just pointing out that according to past trends for Eclipse Awards the only time a turf horse gets HOY is when there isn't a suitable dirt router. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that. Is it right? Perhaps not but until the US changes how they view turf horses they will always be viewed as inferior to dirt horses.
Had he won the Stephen Foster, he would have been undeated in 2012.

I wish we had the old thread on this subject. There were those felt Wise Dan didn't deserve HOY and others who felt a Turf Horse shouldn't win HOY because they had their own division.
Wando
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:15 pm

Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:20 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Wando wrote:
Allspice wrote:...5 for 6, four of those wins G1s, set two track records on two surfaces at two different distances, defeated 4 G1/Gr.1 winners and an additional 17 graded stakes winners, not counting the BC Mile which would up that count to 10 G1 winners...

It's an argument I know comes up (no matter the horse or surface) so I looked at the quality of the horses in the races he won. Turned out he wasn't facing slouches, those turfers were pretty solid.

It's too bad he missed by a headbob in the Stephen Foster. If he hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He would have been undefeated on all three surfaces and at worst people would just shrug and say "meh, well he did beat the Classic winner on his own surface."
How would he be undefeated?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anyone saying that Wise Dan didn't deserver the awards he got last year, most are just pointing out that according to past trends for Eclipse Awards the only time a turf horse gets HOY is when there isn't a suitable dirt router. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that. Is it right? Perhaps not but until the US changes how they view turf horses they will always be viewed as inferior to dirt horses.
Had he won the Stephen Foster, he would have been undeated in 2012.

I wish we had the old thread on this subject. There were those felt Wise Dan didn't deserve HOY and others who felt a Turf Horse shouldn't win HOY because they had their own division.
I thought that was more in relation to him getting champion older male rather than HOY? I seem to recall that argument that turf horses had their division and that older male was only for male dirt routers even though it doesn't actually say that in the award name.
Post Reply