Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Ballerina » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:01 pm

Kay16 wrote:No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.


Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Kay16 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Kay16 wrote:No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.


Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.



Biggest protester in Wise Dan's corner. Of course you wouldn't.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Ballerina » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:14 pm

Kay16 wrote:
Ballerina wrote:
Kay16 wrote:No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were so inconsistent can be. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.


Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no idea what you just tried to say.



Biggest protester in Wise Dan's corner. Of course you wouldn't.


Protesting in response to someone who claims Wise Dan didn't deserve HOY last year? :)
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Allspice » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:11 am

Kay16 wrote:No offense but this was a failed attempt at proving I was some how contradicting myself. I don't know how much more self explanatory saying he won by default because the other divisions were inconsistent can be. You do realize it's not turf miles and then all dirt races, there are other turf divisions out there. That is far from a "turf horses don't deserve HOTY debate". It's he was consistent, no one else was. I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. If you want a turf vs dirt debate, then yes, in the U.S, turf horses need some help from the other divisions if they want HOTY, but that's not my rules, not my opinion. Nor do I think it's completely fair depending.


So...essentially you're saying if it doesn't go to a dirt male, it's winning by default? I guess five of our last ten HoTYs won by default then.

Unless you mean every other division deserves precedence over the turf division, in which case I don't know how you can say you're not biased against turf horses.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby thinair » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:28 pm

The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.

None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Ballerina » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:31 pm

thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.


And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Somnambulist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Ballerina wrote:
thinair wrote:The argument that turf horses will pretty much only win Horse of the Year if no dirt horse comes close to distinguishing him/herself is more than fair. How do you think Kotashan won in 1993?

American racing is, obviously, significantly tilted towards dirt racing. It's not a bias...it's numbers. The amount of significant dirt races not only outweigh turf races in number but also importance. This is inarguable.None of this is a criticism of Wise Dan. He's way past terrific.


And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.


I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby thinair » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:40 pm

Ballerina wrote:
And a turf horse to overcome that handicap is beyond terrific.


Not really. Wise Dan actually didn't "overcome" anything. Nor did Kotashaan. They just had their successful campaigns in year's that no dirt horses distinguished themselves.

Once again, this doesn't diminish the great talent of Wise Dan. It would be hard to find a qualified opinion that doesn't consider him one of the very best horses racing now, if not THE best. The discussion is more about how champions are crowned in this country....whether you, or anyone, thinks this is right or wrong.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby thinair » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:41 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.



I like this better.
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Re: Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes (G1)

Postby Ballerina » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:02 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
I guess you could view it that way. I see it more as well, he got it because everyone else sucked in what America thinks prevelant racing is.


Yeah, I'll buy that. I also buy the fact that when dirt horses don't put in a credible campaign, the award should go elsewhere. All those top bred dirt horses racing in all those dirt races and a turf horse in a limited # of races outclasses them. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot!

Here's to GoD winning the BCC so we don't have another non-stop harrangue as to which horse is the cream of the crap.
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